15-year-old B&W chemicals... still usable?

[Scheimpflug]

I'm going to be picking up an auction lot tomorrow afternoon, and the seller mentioned that she had a batch of B&W development chemicals if I wanted them. The catch, however, is that she hasn't developed any film or paper for about 15 years.

Apparently some of the bottles had been opened, but some are still sealed.

I've done some searching, and it seems as though the chemicals go bad more quickly when they are opened (exposed to air), when they are mixed/diluted, and of course when they are used... but I can't find any real accounts for what the "ultimate" shelf life is for chemicals that are still sealed & unused...

Also, do the different chemicals (developer / stop bath / fixer / hypo clear / wetting agent) have different shelf lives? Are there any in particular that would be more or less likely to be usable?

[marty]

Hello. I'd say it's largely depending on the kind of chemical and it's form.
Powders tend to last way longer then liquids. A notable exception is rodinal, which keeps to go even when totally brown (someone say it gets stronger with age, though I've not verified this myself). Among liquids the developers are the ones to go first, if they're dark and or muddy they're probably gone. Stop baths seems to have no problems. Fixers I've used them from opened bottles even in a period of two years (I get them in 5 lt tanks). Powders are usually ok if they're still white and with no coagulation. (In sealed packs I expect them to be good in long periods, 10 years or more even maybe).

Cheers, M.

[Scheimpflug]

Thanks Marty. I'll definitely look for any powders, and check them out. I think most of them willl be liquids though, from the sound of it. Otherwise, I'll try to open the bottles and check the color. Is there anything else to look for?

Also, when the chemicals "go bad", do they just weaken, or do they fully stop working? Would I get any image at all?

Thanks.

[mo]

Only one way to find out ...try them and then you can let us know... Sounds like you got a great deal.

[Farside]

All you can do is make up some test dilutions and try them out on some test strips of neg. I'd be surprised if all the chemicals are dud.

[motorfingers]

My experience is that things depend on what's what and how it's stored.

Developers in liquid form tend to oxidize with time. If their color is wrong, they may be worthless, particularly if it's very dark. Regardless of color, I would shoot a test roll and cut it up into test frames in the darkroom and use it to test multiple developers. Use fresh stop and fixer to test developers.

Powdered developers go bad too if they are not perfectly sealed. If the powder is caked hard, it's not a good sign, although condensation inside a sealed container can do that.

In summary, I would test any developer before I used it on critical film.

Some fixers can go bad too on exposure to oxygen, particularly liquid. Powdered fixer must, like developers, be perfectly sealed or it will oxydize. Quick fixers are usually ammonia based and the ammonia can easily evaporate over time if the container is not well sealed.

In summary, I would test any fixer before I used it on critical film. If you can take film or paper that you have fixed with the old stuff and re-fix it with fresh fixer, then test the fresh fixer for silver, that's the best test.

Stop bath is easy. Just go by the vinegar smell. If that is gone, it's bad. But, acetic-acid-based stop baths keep very well, if sealed.

Rinses and wetting agents usually keep very well.

Color developers do not keep well, particularly when in liquid form.

Sometimes an old developer that has been found to fog film a bit can be controlled by adding potassium bromide and/or iodide. Tired developer can sometimes be used by mixing it stronger and/or using longer development times. You are in uncharted territory, though.

Sometimes you have better luck with old chemicals by decanting off the top inch (2.5 cm) or so of the bottle. Powders may work better if you spoon off the top mm or so, removing the crust that is a different color than the powder underneath.

I would not trust old color chemistry of any step in the process of C-22/41, E-2/3/4/6, or paper processing, particularly film developer. The color processes are just too intolerant of differences in the development process for good results.

[Sevo]

It very much depends on what substance in what packaging. Stuff not subject to internal reactions will essentially last as long as the packaging can protect it against the access of humidity and air.

Kodak powder-in-a-can chemistry is pretty much for eternity - they stopped packing in cans some time in the nineties and everything I still have or ever bought as new old stock was perfect, like new.

[Attila]

[motorfingers]

Attila - thanks for the welcome. The people over at the POTN Canon forum recommended this forum. I have a large system of Canon manual focus gear and have lost enthusiasm about selling it on eBay and didn't see any classic gear for sale there, and they recommended your Marketplace. I think I'll hand around and get to know the people before I post anything, though. I always did my own film and print processing, mostly color, so I'm very much at home here.

I have been burned by old chemicals a time or two, hence my recommendation to be tentative about developers and fixers, particularly color. It was good to see Sevo's post about Kodak chemicals in original packaging.

[Scheimpflug]

Thanks for the help everyone!

I gave the developer a try tonight... and it worked! Well, sort of... I wasn't really expecting much, so I decided to do a quick test just to see if the developer was OK. The dilution on the bottle is anywhere from 1:9 to 1:14, so I decided to just wing it and skip the measuring.

The stuff that came out of the bottle was dark dark brown, and a bit gritty/chunky as well - sort of like what you get at the bottom of a pot of coffee. I mixed in some warm water, but found that they didn't really want to mix well - the developer stayed separate until I gave it a good stir. Once it was mixed, it was still a dark brown color, and had some sediment at the bottom of the tray.


For paper, I pulled out a few sheets of mystery paper from a pack I bought at a thrift store. The black bags had been opened, and the lid to the box wasn't closed, so I really wasn't expecting any of this paper to be any good. So this was really two tests in one. I laid a pair of scissors, a coin, and a paperclip on top of the paper, and made shadow exposures using lights from above.


For the first print, I used a small LED torch (flashlight), and probably gave it about 10 seconds of exposure. I placed the print into the tray, and after a short while it became a bit cloudy, with a bit of an image forming, but it never really made it very far. The image is faint, and the background is uneven... it almost has a "dirty" look to it?

For the second print, I gave the paper a good 40+ seconds of exposure, and poured more developer into the tray. This one gave a much better print, but it still only developed to a medium grey, nowhere near black. Come to think of it, it almost looks like it has a purple tint? The developing was much more even as well.

For the third print, I gave the paper ~40 seconds of exposure again, but this time from an overhead incandescent light (the garage light), and again poured in more developer to raise the concentration. I suspect that the final concentration was somewhere around 1:4? The print from this one is a bit worse... with similar symptoms to the first print (an uneven "dirty" look).


To be honest, given that the chemicals were old and the paper was unknown, I wasn't expecting any usable results. I didn't even bother getting a tray of fixer ready, so the prints have just been developed and washed... anyone have any guesses as to how long they will last?

[marty]

The developer is probably gone as you've guessed. If you're serious about printing I would try the paper with fresh developer you might get usable images. 40" (and no neg) under incandescent light should make the processed paper solid black. Unfixed prints (exposed to light) should start to stain in few time and consequently discolor to a light brownish.

Cheers, M.

[Scheimpflug]

Thanks Marty.

I'm not too serious at this point - mostly just using these old supplies as a cheap way to get back into things, as it has been ~ 10 years since the last time I've been in a darkroom. So basically, any result is a good result, and I'm keen to learn as much as I can from what I have.

I checked on my print this morning, and it looked just the same as last night. I then brought it outside, and it only took about 5-10 seconds before a visible change was apparent. After about 40 seconds in the sun, the white spots were almost the same shade as the rest of the image- and only an outline was visible.


Do you have any thoughts on why my print would be purple tinted? The areas which should be black are *almost* grey, but sort of a dingy grey with a hint of purple. The portions which were previously white, but now darkened from the sun, are a distinct lavender color - definitely not a grey.


Also, is it possible that the developer would not work as well if the concentration was too high? (ie: does the dilution affect anything other than the developing time?)

[marty]

The tinting is due to being unfixed and exposed to light. I'm not sure about why purple/lavender, my guess is it's depending on emulsion composition. About the concentration too high I don't think that would be the problem I would expect the opposite, that is a too weak solution not working. A higher concentration, other than developing time, should or might alter the contrast making it higher.

Cheers, M.