Is it wrong for me to be jealous and upset...

[justtorchit]

...about the fact that all these sellers on eBay (Kevincameras, photoarsenal, etc) have this amazing, interesting, and above all RARE glass just sitting in their inventory closets listed at ridiculously high rates. The prices are so exorbitant, those of us who would love to enjoy these lenses, let alone just see what the heck a photo with one even looks like, would have to save our whole lives just to afford (one lens in some cases). And it's not like the gear is flying off the shelves! It's quite clear no one will pay those prices so why not send them to auction and see what people will pay, so someone will get the chance to...oh I don't know...maybe do what the lens was made for...USE IT!? Though the cynic in me says in reality, some other businessperson will buy it as an investment and attempt to flip it at a higher rate (and the cycle continues).

I was searching eBay with highest prices first, finding some super intriguing glass I never knew existed! I found a Nikon 2000mm f/11, some of the old Topcon stuff looks really cool, I mean there are just worlds of cool camera lenses out there. Not that this is news to any of you.

I truly bothers me that no one gets to use these lenses. Just wondering if anyone else feels this way or has something to say on the matter.

[scsambrook]

David, in some ways I'm 100 percent in agreement with you. It certainly is frustrating to see wildly overpriced gear in dealers' inventories, but that's market forces at work. These guys have no pressing need to turn their stock back into cash, so they can mark it up at whatever they think someone might eventually pay for it. Or, maybe, they want to tempt people to trade other rarities against it. If you overprice by a factor of 2, then you can inflate your trade in price similarly and make it look as though you're offering a good deal. Which, of course, isn't the case.

But my pet gripe is about the collectors who sit on multiple examples of things, just to have them. The "I-must-have-all-the-variations-no matter-how-trivial-and-pointless" syndrome really gets under my skin. Sorry if that upsets anyone here, but it's what I think. Calming down, I guess those guys and gals are what keep Kevin and Boris in business. The Mad Collectors need Kev and Bo as much the dealers need the MCs, a sort of symbiotic relationship.

Time to shut up now before I upset anyone else - !!!

[Spotmatic]

I hear you and I definitely feel the same. Too bad as these sellers seem to scour the camera shows in Europe, buying all interesting glass available. However, this makes it all the more fun to try to find the lenses yourself for much less. But this is easier in Europe I think, being closer to Germany.

On a side note: when walking around on camera shows I always wear a DSLR with a rare lens on it. In 99% of the cases I'm being asked if I want to sell the lens and if yes, for how much.

[Rolf]

[Esox lucius]

This reminds me of another Mflenses discussion with exactly the same topic, it turned into quite a heated discussion here...

Some feel that the buyers who empty the market and artificially raise prices are low-life worthy of slow death, others see this as a normal supply/demand balance issue which belongs to a free market economy.

I don't think these sellers ruin anything, while some sold APO-Lanthars for 2000 EUR I still got mine for 1050 EUR. It just took me 6 months longer to find one at a reasonable price. I don't care if someone's sitting on all copies of some rare lens, try yourself if you think buying and selling lenses is easily profitable... It's like any coveted or rare item, 90% of the attractiveness is because it is so hard to find. If it was available in abundance it wouldn't be attractive.

[scsambrook]

Hi Rolf, and Hi Esox lucius !

Rolf - I think I can understand the stamp collectors, but my moans at the photo-gear hoarders (whoops!) centre on my understanding of lenses as being tools that do a job. I could understand someone collecting - say - the evolving family of Summicrons to reflect changes in the optical design, and hence the way they work. But to have a number of examples of one particular Summicron because the milling on the aperture ring had changed (or whatever) leaves me puzzled. Still we can all spend our money on what we want, so it's just a moan and not an indictment of anyone's sanity.

Esox - no, I don't want to give Kev or Bo or anyone else a slow death because they've got multiples of a relatively rare item on their shelves. Nor do I think buying and selling is easily profitable - in fact, I know from my "previous life" how hard that can be. But once again (and maybe I'm a little strange in thinking this) the attraction of a 75mm Biotar or a 90mm Thambar - for me at least - is in the uniqueness of what the lens is or can do, rather than its scarcity.

Market forces are unavoidable, and human nature infinitely variable. So, in the end it's Good Luck to Kev and Bo and all the lucky folks who have nice collections of whatever lights their fire

[ylyad]

I don't think they deserve death, slow or long. But death would mean lots of gear on sale

[Scheimpflug]

[alex]

Stephen makes a discerning point, that lenses in the main are objects with a function, which gives a different perspective from that of objects such as used postage stamps, traded principally as collectibles. This, by the same reasoning, is why I find the moralistic tone of those who declare it an offence against humanity to put a high price on a cheap lens, absurd. We are not short, on this planet, of lenses of every conceivable type and quality and price. (Admittedly, examples of the Zeiss 1700mm Apo-Sonnar are thin on the ground.) If these dealers put a price of $200 on a 50mm CZJ Tessar whose market value is nearer $10, there are plenty of other 50mm lenses that will do the job, many of them a great deal better. And if the lens happens to be a rare one, that rarity alone will put a premium on the price anyway. The idea that the photographic world is deprived in some way because a particular lens lies on a shelf unused doesn't bear much scrutiny.

[woodrim]

Take a chill. People enjoy their hobbies in different ways, and are entitled to do so. And the market will always determine prices in the long run, so either wait it out or in the case where it's going up, buy it now. Be very careful of the "other people should think like me" attitude; it can only create problems. Except, of course, my attitude of others should think like me by allowing others to think as they like

My other hobby is classic cars, although I can no longer afford to dabble in them. I have seen people owning cars just to own them, others as investments. I choose to drive them and couldn't bare to have one sitting in a garage that I won't drive for fear of something happening to it. I'll drive mine to a show while others trailer theirs. I have a close friend that rarely drives his and I have come to realize his enjoyment comes from owning it - I don't think he actually enjoys driving it. To me it's silly, but to him it makes sense. We both enjoy our cars like we choose to.

[alex]

[Big Dawg]

It doesn't really bother me if others cannot understand why I collect lenses. It is my decision and mine alone. I am not a wealthy person so most CZ's and Apo whatevers are beyond my price range to start with. I save my money..I get a dollar a day to go to work on...and save those dollars to buy my lens. I hunt and search for days and weeks to find the rare and unusual and then after finding and buying a lens I use it and post the results here. Not always good results but I'm not a pro photographer either. This is my hobby not my avocation. I try to explain why I like or dislike a lens and also let prospective buyers of that particular type of lens see it and see how well it works. My lens are used on a rotating basis and never just sit on a shelf. My hobby is not bothering anyone and the lens purchases I make come from my hard earned money. A lot of sweat, blood and skinned knuckles go into my buys. Most of us collectors want the experience of the unusual or the lens we've read so many glowing reviews of. There is none of that I've got one and you don't attitude in my camp...rather I have one and here is how I feel about it. A discussion of it's virtues and shortcomings cannot happen if you do not have one or have had one in the past. The discussion pushes my knowledge forward and helps me understand more of my hobby and passion.

But the "I don't understand why they do that" never bothers me...for if you did understand you would be already doing it. LOL

[LucisPictor]

It's the ongoing discussion about morality and the market.
IMHO there should be restrictions to the free market that start where morality ends. If a certain group of people (may it be less intelligent or older ones or collectors) are taken advantage of, it starts to be annoying.
I could go on for ages about that, but I won't. Because it only would put me in a bad mood and I do not want that now.

[woodrim]

[LucisPictor]

[justtorchit]

[magkelly]

I say love the lenses you've got and do with what you can afford. As much as I kid around about wanting to own every great Takumar out there I know my budget will never lend itself to going anywhere near the collection of lenses I'd like to have. Sure there are lenses out there I still want and there are a couple of Takumars that are still on my "to buy" list someday, but that doesn't mean that I am sitting here bemoaning all the lenses my wallet cannot afford. On the contrary, I'm too busy using the gear I've got to care.

Supply and demand will always drive a market to places some people can't go. That's a fact of life. It's why I'll probably never own top of the line lenses or a $5K camera. But I'm not going to let that stop me from being the best d- photographer I can be with what I can afford.

Nice equipment surely helps, but ultimately it is the person behind the lens that matters in the end not what it is labeled.

[Big Dawg]

I don't think of it as a fight. I look at it as a couple of friends that are having a friendly discussion,. We may not agree...but friends can agree to disagree and still be friends. I do see your point on that last post and must agree that there are lens out there that I cannot get. I would love to have a FA* 600mm or an FA* 250-600mm Pentax lens but the $4,000-$6000+ price tag will always prevent me from getting them. Too many better things to do with the small amount of money I have and Well....I'm having too much fun to notice their absence from my lens collection.

[Big Dawg]

[woodrim]

[alex]

[luisalegria]

Alex is right.

All the stuff that Kevin and co. have is perfectly substitutable in practice. I don't see that a genuine artistic purpose is impeded because these guys set high prices for uncommon lenses.

Those guys are charging collectors prices for collectors. You can see similar price ranges on the auctioneers sites, for rare cameras, albeit they mostly don't deal in rare lenses all that often. Often both Kevin and the auctioneers get absurd prices for quite common stuff, just because the buyer did no research.

But just like a 6x9 camera won't give a different image just because it is made of polished brass and teakwood vs rusty sheetmetal, there is no real reason to insist on a pre-war chrome brass Biotar 75 when a Samyang 85 will do as well or better.

So goes the old saying, that while critics discuss painting, artists discuss paint. Beyond a certain point though paint is paint.

As for collectors; all old objects, that were not made as pure art, did start off with a more or less practical function, but have since aquired a value as pure art. Old cars that should not be driven on modern highways were meant to be driven on old roads, priceless old porcelain that would be imprudent to even handle, was meant to be used on the table, at least on certain occasions, etc. Maybe its better that the Busch Nicola Perscheid portrait lens stays in the cabinet at least most of the time.

[justtorchit]

You guys make some excellent points here. Alex, I especially like your correction in discussing market value. Thanks for all the input, just curious where people stand on this!

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

It doesn't bother me, because I filter such sellers out of my searches. Whenever I see someone asking for unreasonable prices for a lens, they go to my ignore list. Life doesn't have to be complicated.

[Esox lucius]

Personally, I don't see an issue here. Overpriced items used to be decorate certain camera stores, which sold used equipment at ridiculous prices. Now they've just moved on to eBay, where they can reach a larger amount of idiots. I'm just curious as how it is possible, that someone who is "tech-savvy" enough to register on eBay but dumb enough not to Google what he is buying.

Think of money and intelligence as two pillars. Regardless of which pillar is higher, it is only a question of time before the pillars will be of the same height.