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Vivitar 600mm solid cat lens...A few quick photos
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:13 am    Post subject: Vivitar 600mm solid cat lens...A few quick photos Reply with quote
Shot these hand held from my front porch. Dull gloomy day but still worked pretty good. I don't like the Bokeh much but it is a fairly sharp lens. Not as heavy as I was expecting and quite easy to hold and shoot with one hand. More to come later.






PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So you bought it finally?
From a photographer point of view, if those pictures are all it can do, it's a crap.
As a collector, I'd like to have it.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Vivitar 600mm solid cat lens...A few quick photos Reply with quote
Big Dawg wrote:
I don't like the Bokeh much but


On my side, i like the bokeh because it has quite NO donut effect

Himself wrote:
From a photographer point of view, if those pictures are all it can do, it's a crap.


Crap .. tha tis not fair : medium quality would be more precise


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Are we looking at the same images? Laughing I see plenty of doughnuts!

Keeping in mind this is a 600mm(!) mirror lens, compared to 500mm mirror lens results (except the Tamron SP!) I say results shown here are very good. Compared to non-mirror 600mm lenses, yes, medium quality.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Are we looking at the same images? Laughing I see plenty of doughnuts!
.


1- I will be more precise : i like the bokeh for a mirror lens because the dougnut effect is different from usual ; i would say more peanuts than doughnuts = (at my opinion) less disturbing
for me the bokeh is comparable with NON gracious bokeh from some non-mirror lenses

2- Compared to my zuiko 500 mirror : quality is not on same league

It seems - but i have to check further- on the same league (a little bit under) than my Sigma 1000mm


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Better to not publish any pictures , you will be in trouble if you want to sell it. Not good at all Sorin did said honestly the truth. Just a bit more money to buy a Leica 500mm mirror what is lot more better or buy lot cheaper a Russian which is also lot more better.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Bokeh effect is interesting. It seems to be more pronounced toward infinity and less so at closer focus.

As far as quality, from what BD said, this was hand-held on an overcast day with little contrast. That's far from optimal conditions.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison in similar conditions of this 600mm lens and a standard 600mm lens hand-held.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry most of you didn't read before commenting. Or maybe I am at fault for not doing a better job explaining what this was about. This was a shoot where I walked out on the porch on a gloomy overcast day and hand held just blasted away for a few minutes. So wait till there are better conditions and more care taken before judging. I in my enthusiasm posted my first few photos with a new lens and didn't intend that they be the definitive results of it or my capabilities. Sorry if you thought otherwise but to judge this lens as poor or medium quality from just these is ludicrous at best...If you cannot understand then I really should not post anymore from it...that way you can retain your present opinions and believe as you wish.

A long lens is hard enough to dial in and find it's design abilities and the specific conditions and settings required to get the most from it...much less going from a long lens to a compact mirror lens. With my Bigma it took the better part of a year and many photos before the comfort zone was found. I expect the same here.

So said this ends this.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Big Dawg wrote:
Sorry most of you didn't read before commenting. Or maybe I am at fault for not doing a better job explaining what this was about. This was a shoot where I walked out on the porch on a gloomy overcast day and hand held just blasted away for a few minutes. So wait till there are better conditions and more care taken before judging. I in my enthusiasm posted my first few photos with a new lens and didn't intend that they be the definitive results of it or my capabilities. Sorry if you thought otherwise but to judge this lens as poor or medium quality from just these is ludicrous at best...If you cannot understand then I really should not post anymore from it...that way you can retain your present opinions and believe as you wish.

A long lens is hard enough to dial in and find it's design abilities and the specific conditions and settings required to get the most from it...much less going from a long lens to a compact mirror lens. With my Bigma it took the better part of a year and many photos before the comfort zone was found. I expect the same here.

So said this ends this.


+1

I did read and based my observations on results of other lenses used in similar non-favorable conditions Wink

Please do post results from use in more favorable conditions! (I have been waiting to see those Sad)


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Big Dawg wrote:
Sorry most of you didn't read before commenting. Or maybe I am at fault for not doing a better job explaining what this was about. This was a shoot where I walked out on the porch on a gloomy overcast day and hand held just blasted away for a few minutes. So wait till there are better conditions and more care taken before judging. I in my enthusiasm posted my first few photos with a new lens and didn't intend that they be the definitive results of it or my capabilities. Sorry if you thought otherwise but to judge this lens as poor or medium quality from just these is ludicrous at best...If you cannot understand then I really should not post anymore from it...that way you can retain your present opinions and believe as you wish.

A long lens is hard enough to dial in and find it's design abilities and the specific conditions and settings required to get the most from it...much less going from a long lens to a compact mirror lens. With my Bigma it took the better part of a year and many photos before the comfort zone was found. I expect the same here.

So said this ends this.


+1

I did read and based my observations on results of other lenses used in similar non-favorable conditions Wink

Please do post results from use in more favorable conditions! (I have been waiting to see those Sad)


I will do so when conditions improve here. Raining right now and very dark with a 25 mile per hour breeze blowing and 32 degrees. LOL. I will post it under more photos from my "For Crap Lens" LOL Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice tractor Wink

Do you have some photos of this crazy mirror thingy?


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
Nice tractor Wink

Do you have some photos of this crazy mirror thingy?


I'll post some of those as soon as I get the toilet tissue out and clean it up a little...LOL Seriously soon. I'll PM you to remind you..LOL Laughing Laughing


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A few more from today. Conditions rapidly deteriorating. Hand held some in the rain. Very thin DOF with this lens and at f/8, it is hard to get focus confirmation with the K7 in this low light.








PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fantastic colours!


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Big Dawg wrote:
This was a shoot where I walked out on the porch on a gloomy overcast day and hand held just blasted away for a few minutes.

Just wanted to say thanks for posting these. Wink Many of my favorite shots are the ones where I have to pull a lens out quick and catch something that is happening, and "real-world" shots like yours are actually extremely encouraging from that respect. Cool Shooting 500mm+ without a tripod and mirror lock up is always a challenge.


visualopsins wrote:
Keeping in mind this is a 600mm(!) mirror lens, compared to 500mm mirror lens results (except the Tamron SP!) I say results shown here are very good. Compared to non-mirror 600mm lenses, yes, medium quality.

Absolutely... and when comparing the images, we also have to keep in mind just how huge the non-mirror 600mm lenses really are. Shocked

Here's my Vivitar 500/5.6 for reference... a 600mm prime would be even bigger. Many are so big that they have built-in handles. Shocked


This Solid Cat may not be the "best 600mm lens ever made", but a small image quality tradeoff is certainly acceptable when you consider the size. Have a look here for an example of how small the 600/8 is when mounted to a camera: http://www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=301325



I think we also need to keep in mind the level of post-processing. Big Dawg tends to be one of the most conservative in this respect, something which I am grateful for when he posts his lens samples, as I have a much better idea of how the lens actually performs. Many of the other mirror shots here are so over-processed that they are full of sharpening artifacts. Neutral


PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Encouraging BD...I like your handhelds...in the gloom and doom Very Happy We have had a bit of that lately!
In better weather it does produce the goods...maybe not on lecia's level...but nice all the same.I will look forward to seeing the lens itself!
I dislike tripods(The carrying and folding/unfolding),so I am on the look out for a monopod...have you got a monopod to try the lens on?


PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
Fantastic colours!


Thanks MFG. It has pretty good color rendition. I did boost the contrast "in camera" For theswe as someone remarked the Cats are poor in that regard...also these are without the filters that came with it. I've tried it with and without the filters and actually prefer without.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scheimpflug wrote:
Big Dawg wrote:
This was a shoot where I walked out on the porch on a gloomy overcast day and hand held just blasted away for a few minutes.

Just wanted to say thanks for posting these. Wink Many of my favorite shots are the ones where I have to pull a lens out quick and catch something that is happening, and "real-world" shots like yours are actually extremely encouraging from that respect. Cool Shooting 500mm+ without a tripod and mirror lock up is always a challenge.


visualopsins wrote:
Keeping in mind this is a 600mm(!) mirror lens, compared to 500mm mirror lens results (except the Tamron SP!) I say results shown here are very good. Compared to non-mirror 600mm lenses, yes, medium quality.

Absolutely... and when comparing the images, we also have to keep in mind just how huge the non-mirror 600mm lenses really are. Shocked

Here's my Vivitar 500/5.6 for reference... a 600mm prime would be even bigger. Many are so big that they have built-in handles. Shocked


This Solid Cat may not be the "best 600mm lens ever made", but a small image quality tradeoff is certainly acceptable when you consider the size. Have a look here for an example of how small the 600/8 is when mounted to a camera: http://www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=301325



I think we also need to keep in mind the level of post-processing. Big Dawg tends to be one of the most conservative in this respect, something which I am grateful for when he posts his lens samples, as I have a much better idea of how the lens actually performs. Many of the other mirror shots here are so over-processed that they are full of sharpening artifacts. Neutral



You are so right on the problems hand holding and focusing a long lens. Actually the Bigma I own and shoot is easier to get a steady photo hand held than this mirror lens. Or at least it seems that way to me. Though this lens is much shorter it seems as if there is more image movement than the Bigma. I know for a fact that there is a smaller Depth of Field when shooting the Solid Cat. A birds head can be in focus and the a slight movement of it's head puts it out of focus. Not so with the Bigma. More to come later as I continue to try mastering this one.

PS..that is the lens alright and your 500mm looks a lot like my 600mm long focus Vivitar. Now that one is really hard to hand hold and shoot.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
mo wrote:
Encouraging BD...I like your handhelds...in the gloom and doom Very Happy We have had a bit of that lately!
In better weather it does produce the goods...maybe not on lecia's level...but nice all the same.I will look forward to seeing the lens itself!
I dislike tripods(The carrying and folding/unfolding),so I am on the look out for a monopod...have you got a monopod to try the lens on?


I do have a monopod Moira. I hate using it as well as a tripod but I may ...or rather I will have to swallow my pride and shoot with one. Mirror lock-up and all to get better quality it seems. But then again...I'll keep hand holding as well...If you never practice it you never master it I say.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scheimpflug wrote:
... and when comparing the images, we also have to keep in mind just how huge the non-mirror 600mm lenses really are. Shocked

Here's my Vivitar 500/5.6 for reference... a 600mm prime would be even bigger. Many are so big that they have built-in handles. Shocked

...


some CATs have built-on handles too Wink

size, weight, and often, price of CATs are often small fractions of non-CATs equivalent focal lengths, especially if APOs are included.

@Scheimpflug, I am fascinated by the mat on your table! Are those exotic hardwood pieces or stones?

S-M-C Takumar 1:4.5/500 (front element is 120mm diameter, lens is 440mm long, weight 3.5kg):





PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Big Dawg wrote:
mo wrote:
Encouraging BD...I like your handhelds...in the gloom and doom Very Happy We have had a bit of that lately!
In better weather it does produce the goods...maybe not on lecia's level...but nice all the same.I will look forward to seeing the lens itself!
I dislike tripods(The carrying and folding/unfolding),so I am on the look out for a monopod...have you got a monopod to try the lens on?


I do have a monopod Moira. I hate using it as well as a tripod but I may ...or rather I will have to swallow my pride and shoot with one. Mirror lock-up and all to get better quality it seems. But then again...I'll keep hand holding as well...If you never practice it you never master it I say.

I thought a monopod would be easier to use Smile


PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
mo wrote:
Big Dawg wrote:
mo wrote:
Encouraging BD...I like your handhelds...in the gloom and doom Very Happy We have had a bit of that lately!
In better weather it does produce the goods...maybe not on lecia's level...but nice all the same.I will look forward to seeing the lens itself!
I dislike tripods(The carrying and folding/unfolding),so I am on the look out for a monopod...have you got a monopod to try the lens on?


I do have a monopod Moira. I hate using it as well as a tripod but I may ...or rather I will have to swallow my pride and shoot with one. Mirror lock-up and all to get better quality it seems. But then again...I'll keep hand holding as well...If you never practice it you never master it I say.

I thought a monopod would be easier to use Smile

They are in most cases and more welcome in crowded situations than a tripod.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What are your impressions of the 600mm...was it worth the money to you?


PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do you have a pic with that 600 mirror on the camera?


PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting reactions to the first shots.

I never understand what lenses people compare mirror lenses to. There are few conventional lenses that offer the same focal length/aperture for the same price. And in my experience, such alternatives suffer from purple fringing, so whatever better resolution they may offer (if any) is wasted on fringing. And I didn't even get into size and weight.

Even comparing to other mirror lenses, it's not like you can point a mirror lens at anything and get a masterpiece of rendering and bokeh. If light is mediocre, the results will be more so. You need good light and a fast shutter speed to be able to get decent results.

Output of this Vivitar seems to be very competent so far and much better than any conventional lens combo that you could cobble for its price. You would need an excellent 300/4 + 2xTC to beat this lens. For any affordable 300/4, the main problem you would get would be PF. I have several 300mm lenses from the 80s and while they're great for resolution, they suffer from PF. Here's an example from a quick experiment (a conventional 200@4 + 2xTC => equivalent 400/8, and cropped):



Welcome to a purple world! Good resolution, but lots of purple. You don't get this from a mirror and you don't break your back carrying it either. And this is from a decent fast 200mm - I stopped it down to f/4 to minimize PF (f/8 is from the TC use).

People keep talking about how great this or that lens is, but when you actually get one it's rarely as good as rumor has it - because you never see the bad shots that lens can take. You hear some people talking about their lenses and it's like they don't even need people - they just take amazing pictures by itselves. It rarely works that way. So, in the words of Ali G: "Keep it real!" Smile
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