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Discovering the power of sensor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Discovering the power of sensor Reply with quote
I know I am a bit late in discovering this fact, but I am truly impressed just how good the Sigma foveon sensor performs in terms of the IQ it can deliver!

Canon 5D vs SD14

http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/

It is a pity there is no FF ver Wink


PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Video cameras have been doing this for years.....bout time we saw a nice FF three CCD system I think for our SLRs


PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:04 pm    Post subject: Rest assured Reply with quote
The way and speed of development guarantees that you will have your wish?

By then, FF may mean 4/3 though!?


PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Discovering the power of sensor Reply with quote
stingOM wrote:
It is a pity there is no FF ver Wink


Did you see the announcement of the SD1? It isn't FF yet, but they have enlarged the sensor a bit... moving from a 1.7x to a 1.5x crop factor.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Discovering the power of sensor Reply with quote
stingOM wrote:
I know I am a bit late in discovering this fact, but I am truly impressed just how good the Sigma foveon sensor performs in terms of the IQ it can deliver!

Canon 5D vs SD14

http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/

It is a pity there is no FF ver Wink


Yes, that is absolutly true. Started in 2003 with Foveon until this year.Wanted a FF. I love my 5DII, but there is still an edge (at good light and low ISO) where the Sigma really sings!!!
SD1 sounds promising. When releasing a FF, I will get one!

Klaus


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Discovering the power of sensor Reply with quote
exaklaus wrote:
stingOM wrote:
I know I am a bit late in discovering this fact, but I am truly impressed just how good the Sigma foveon sensor performs in terms of the IQ it can deliver!
Canon 5D vs SD14
http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/
It is a pity there is no FF ver Wink

Yes, that is absolutly true. Started in 2003 with Foveon until this year.Wanted a FF. I love my 5DII, but there is still an edge (at good light and low ISO) where the Sigma really sings!!!
SD1 sounds promising. When releasing a FF, I will get one!
Klaus


One thing I would like to read is, a serious, unbiased comparison of images taken with a Foveon reflex and a CMOS reflex, using the very same lens.
I never had the luck to find one. I read so much talk about how superior the colour performance of the Foveon is, but until I can compare two images taken in the same place, at the same moment, and with the same lens, it is impossible for me to understand. When I look at images posted with the Foveon cameras, I can not see things or colours that my 5DII can not take. But like I said, it's impossible to make a real opinion until a real, serious comparison is available.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio, I think it is not easy to compare cameras with so different sensor sizes and resolutions! And what you see on the net can be made by nearly every half-good camera, lots of details and the overall mood of the picture gets lost. I see a picture on my computer, load it up at MF and see a different picture. A good thing to see the power of a camera is to make a really good print (my opinion). Still have a few 50x70cm prints from my SD10 on the wall, that are absolutly amazing (my opinion). OK, that can't be as it is just a 3,6mp sensor and technically explained, what happens quite often, it is crap. And the Sigma is kind of primitive, which makes it easy to handle it!
Mr. Green
Maybe, but the results are special! (if you had a good lens, good light , low ISO)

Klaus


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Discovering the power of sensor Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
exaklaus wrote:
stingOM wrote:
I know I am a bit late in discovering this fact, but I am truly impressed just how good the Sigma foveon sensor performs in terms of the IQ it can deliver!
Canon 5D vs SD14
http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/
It is a pity there is no FF ver Wink

Yes, that is absolutly true. Started in 2003 with Foveon until this year.Wanted a FF. I love my 5DII, but there is still an edge (at good light and low ISO) where the Sigma really sings!!!
SD1 sounds promising. When releasing a FF, I will get one!
Klaus


One thing I would like to read is, a serious, unbiased comparison of images taken with a Foveon reflex and a CMOS reflex, using the very same lens.
I never had the luck to find one. I read so much talk about how superior the colour performance of the Foveon is, but until I can compare two images taken in the same place, at the same moment, and with the same lens, it is impossible for me to understand. When I look at images posted with the Foveon cameras, I can not see things or colours that my 5DII can not take. But like I said, it's impossible to make a real opinion until a real, serious comparison is available.


Foveon "colour performance" is bad compared to bayer sensored cameras. The colour superiority is a myth. It is easy to think, that if a pixel is recorded by three photosites on top of each other, that the colour is then somehow perfect or superior, but that is not the case. In reality, it is far easier to control the colour with colour filters than with silicon. The foveon-style sensor is filled with probems, like when light hits at an angle, the colour inaccuracy, high noise and so on.

But it is interesting sensor due to it being rather different.

A bit off topic - anyone interested in following the developements of the sensor technology should read the http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/ blog, as well as the comments. To bring this back to topic, it is interesting to notice how little interest Foveon-related news get in the commentary. Maybe a bit from Eric Fossum summarises it well: I think the Foveon story points to the barriers facing new technology that does not have compelling advantages over existing technology.

Joseph Wisniewski knows more about camera technology than all of us in this forum combined (excluding possible lurkers Wink ), and he puts it rather clearly (yes, I did use the search function on the DPR, site I don't like all that much, but where are some actual experts enlightening silly laypeople like myself): http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=33655846


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Discovering the power of sensor Reply with quote
exaklaus wrote:
stingOM wrote:
I know I am a bit late in discovering this fact, but I am truly impressed just how good the Sigma foveon sensor performs in terms of the IQ it can deliver!

Canon 5D vs SD14

http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/

It is a pity there is no FF ver Wink


Yes, that is absolutly true. Started in 2003 with Foveon until this year.Wanted a FF. I love my 5DII, but there is still an edge (at good light and low ISO) where the Sigma really sings!!!
SD1 sounds promising. When releasing a FF, I will get one!

Klaus


About the 20+ Mp 5DII and the 5- Mp Sigma, there is absolutely nothing where the Sigma is better than the Canon, when it comes to imaging. The simples (and silliest Wink ) way of truping the Foveon is just by brutally combining 4 5DII pixels into 1 and turn the camera into a 5+ Mp camera where every single pixels is far superior to the Foveon pixels Wink

Anyhow, if the Foveon FF someday materializes, I'm happy to take your then useless 5DII from your hands for a friendly token amount of money Smile


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exaklaus wrote:
Orio, I think it is not easy to compare cameras with so different sensor sizes and resolutions! And what you see on the net can be made by nearly every half-good camera, lots of details and the overall mood of the picture gets lost. I see a picture on my computer, load it up at MF and see a different picture. A good thing to see the power of a camera is to make a really good print (my opinion). Still have a few 50x70cm prints from my SD10 on the wall, that are absolutly amazing (my opinion). OK, that can't be as it is just a 3,6mp sensor and technically explained, what happens quite often, it is crap. And the Sigma is kind of primitive, which makes it easy to handle it!
Mr. Green
Maybe, but the results are special! (if you had a good lens, good light , low ISO)

Klaus


The results from Lomo, Holga and such are also special
Razz


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Anu wrote:
exaklaus wrote:
Orio, I think it is not easy to compare cameras with so different sensor sizes and resolutions! And what you see on the net can be made by nearly every half-good camera, lots of details and the overall mood of the picture gets lost. I see a picture on my computer, load it up at MF and see a different picture. A good thing to see the power of a camera is to make a really good print (my opinion). Still have a few 50x70cm prints from my SD10 on the wall, that are absolutly amazing (my opinion). OK, that can't be as it is just a 3,6mp sensor and technically explained, what happens quite often, it is crap. And the Sigma is kind of primitive, which makes it easy to handle it!
Mr. Green
Maybe, but the results are special! (if you had a good lens, good light , low ISO)

Klaus


The results from Lomo, Holga and such are also special
Razz

Laughing


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting and educational discussions. Thx! Keep them going Smile


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I knew it would work Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green


Klaus

That was tooooo easy....


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Discovering the power of sensor Reply with quote
Orio wrote:


One thing I would like to read is, a serious, unbiased comparison of images taken with a Foveon reflex and a CMOS reflex, using the very same lens.
I never had the luck to find one. I read so much talk about how superior the colour performance of the Foveon is, but until I can compare two images taken in the same place, at the same moment, and with the same lens, it is impossible for me to understand. When I look at images posted with the Foveon cameras, I can not see things or colours that my 5DII can not take. But like I said, it's impossible to make a real opinion until a real, serious comparison is available.


Hi Orio,

Although this doesn't cover the same lens on different bodies, this test highlights the advantage of Foveon over bayer. I don't know why this testing isn't carried out now?? All resolution tests are B&W!

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmadp1/page20.asp


PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Discovering the power of sensor Reply with quote
rpo83 wrote:
Orio wrote:


One thing I would like to read is, a serious, unbiased comparison of images taken with a Foveon reflex and a CMOS reflex, using the very same lens.
I never had the luck to find one. I read so much talk about how superior the colour performance of the Foveon is, but until I can compare two images taken in the same place, at the same moment, and with the same lens, it is impossible for me to understand. When I look at images posted with the Foveon cameras, I can not see things or colours that my 5DII can not take. But like I said, it's impossible to make a real opinion until a real, serious comparison is available.


Hi Orio,

Although this doesn't cover the same lens on different bodies, this test highlights the advantage of Foveon over bayer. I don't know why this testing isn't carried out now?? All resolution tests are B&W!

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmadp1/page20.asp


It is easy to think that Foveon has some significant resolution advantage over Bayer if the pixel count is the same. However, this is not really true. Bayer sensors essentially subsample chrominance information, not so much luminance information - for example just defining the green channel as luminance is vast over simplification. In a sense one could think of Bayer-filtering as image data compression. In principle Foveon doesn't do this compression, but records all chrominance data, but in practise the data quality is very bad, making any possible advantage very questionable indeed.

When it comes to camera/sensor reviews, one should not ever look at DPR - they are clueless. Phil Askey (or whatever the name is) is stricktly an amateur when it comes to reviewing cameras. Too bad the folks he has hired don't seem to be much better suited for the job either.

The DPR forums however to have some extremely bright and well taught folks teaching the dum people like me ( Smile ) - ejmartin, John Sheehy, Joseph S Wisniewski, falconeyes (I which he'd chosen his name to be falkoneyes though, due to his name) etc. All of them understand camera sensors better than I do, and also tend to have different backgrounds, thus giving a different perspective on the issues - ejmartin for example is a professor of physics, specializing in string theory I think. I hightly recomment readin whatever these folks write (and checking out ejmartin's and Falk Lumo's websites as well - very informative).

Regarding that dpr-link - I find it to be hillarious that they mention ambien temperature of the test environment, but fail to mention if they use raw- or jpg-files off the camera, and if former, which conversion software. As camera's can't use much power for raw->jpg-conversion, the results out of camera are always a joke (with today's technology) compared to the results out of good raw-conversion software - includng resolution. But at least we know the ambient temperature Wink

(and btw, in real life it is hard to find the colour combinations they use - ok, the swedish flag... Wink .)


PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kawasakiguy37 wrote:
Video cameras have been doing this for years.....bout time we saw a nice FF three CCD system I think for our SLRs


And film cameras for decades. Smile

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_C480.html#C480
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