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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:05 am    Post subject: Ornano chemical products Reply with quote

These are the currently still produced chemicals by the Ornano company:

GRADUAL ST20 (b&w film developer)


concentrated, 1+9 dilution, one-shot
sold in 1-liter bottles, price in year 2012 catalogue: 18 Euros
Description:
Developer of complex composition, contains Phenidone.
Very high acutance, very fine grain. Good energy. High speed. Preserves original film speed.
Tolerates underexposure of more than 1 stop. High compensation. Excellent tonal rendering.
Universal use. Good for big enlargements. For ambient light (also low) and diffused artificial light.
Fashion, reportage, architecture. Micro and Macro photography. Good for high-speed films.
Particularly indicated for use in small tanks (spirals).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

STD (b&w film developer)


concentrated, 1+15 or 1+31 dilution. At 1+15 can process up to 10-12 films per 1 liter of solution.
At 1+30 it's one-shot.
sold in 1-liter bottles, price in year 2012 catalogue: 11 Euros
Description:
Contains Hydroquinone and Dinezone-S. It's nearly identical to the late Agfa Studional.
Very high acutance, fine grain. Good energy. Universal use.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

FINO S31 (b&w film developer)


ready-to-use, re-useable stock solution. It can process 12-13 small format films per 1 liter.
sold in 1- or 5-liter bottles, price in year 2012 catalogue: 6 Euros for 1-liter bottle (46 Euros for 12 units),
18 Euros for two 5-liters bottles.
Description:
Contains Metapol-Hydroquinone. Indicated for professional photographers and industrial photography.
High-compensation developer, very fine grain, excellent tonal rendering, good acutance, medium-strong contrast.
Allows for 1-stop underexposures. Active starting from 16C. Long-lasting.
Universal use. Ambient light, artificial diffused light (also flash). Fashion, landscapes, architecture.
Reproduction of continuous-ink originals.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

NORMATON ST18 (b&w paper developer)


concentrated, 1+7 dilution, 1'30'' to 2'00'' developing time at 20C. Can process 1,5 square meters per 1 liter of solution.
sold in 1- or 5-liters bottles, price in year 2012 catalogue: 9 Euros for 1-liter bottle (86 Euros for 12 units),
45 Euros for two 5-liters bottles.
Description:
Contains Phenidone-Hydroquinone. Particularly indicated for multigrade papers.
Neutral black tones. Wide tonal range.
Universal use: portraits, landscapes, flash studio photographs.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

BROMOR ST50 (b&w film and paper developer)


concentrated
Paper use: 1+9 dilution with 1'30'' to 2'00'' developing time at 20C, or 1+19 dilution with 3'00'' to 4'00'' developing time at 20C
Can process 1,5 square meters per 1 liter of solution at 1+9 dilution.
Film use: 1+4 dilution with 1'30'' to 2'30'' developing time at 20C
sold in 1- or 5-liter bottles, price in year 2012 catalogue: 8 Euros for 1-liter bottle (81 Euros for 12 units),
50 Euros for two 5-liters bottles.
Description:
Contains Phenidone-Hydroquinone.
Paper use: particularly indicated for multigrade papers.
1+9 dilution: renders cold black tones; remarkable acutance; gradual tone changes; excellent rendering of half-tones.
Significantly more contrasted gradation than Normaton ST18.
1+19 dilution: renders warm tones.
Film use: recommended for fast negative development.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

BROMORAPID 980 (b&w paper developer)


concentrated, 1+9 dilution with 1'00'' to 1'30'' developing time at 20C
Can process more than 2 square meters per 1 liter of solution.
sold in 5-liters bottles, price in year 2012 catalogue: 52.50 Euros for two 5-liters bottles.
Description:
Contains Phenidone-Hydroquinone. Particularly indicated for resin-coated papers, also multigrade.
Very fast action. Neutral black tones. Maximum blackening. Very wide tonal gradations. Long-lasting (also in dilution).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

SUPERFIX F205 (b&w film and paper fixer)


concentrated.
Film use: 1+4 dilution with 1'00'' to 2'00'' fixing time, can process more than 20 small format films per 1 liter of solution.
Paper use: 1+9 dilution with 2'30'' to 4'00'' fixing time, can process more than 1 square meter of paper per 1 liter of solution.
sold in 1- or 5-liter bottles, price in year 2012 catalogue: 9 Euros for 1-liter bottle (80 Euros for 12 units),
50 Euros for two 5-liters bottles.
Description:
Acidic, contains Ammonium Hyposulphite. Very fast action. Great energy at the denser dilution (1+4), more moderate action
at thinner dilutions. Allows for very fast processing and short washing. Particularly indicated for resin-coated papers.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ACETIC ACID 80% SOLUTION (b&w film and paper stop)


sold in 1-liter bottles, price in year 2012 catalogue: 15 Euros for 1-liter bottle (75 Euros for 6 units).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ORDERING INFORMATION:
You can order using the online form at http://www.ornano.it/english/default_eng.htm or by writing at info @ ornano.it
Don't forget to ask for the shipping cost to your country.
If there are troubles shipping direct to your country, I offer my service as relayer.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Ornano chemical products Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
These are the currently still produced chemicals by the Ornano company:

GRADUAL ST20 (b&w film developer)


concentrated, 1+9 dilution, one-shot
sold in 1-liter bottles, price in year 2012 catalogue: 18 Euros
Description:
Developer of complex composition, contains Phenidone.
Very high acutance, very fine grain. Good energy. High speed. Preserves original film speed.
Tolerates underexposure of more than 1 stop. High compensation. Excellent tonal rendering.
Universal use. Good for big enlargements. For ambient light (also low) and diffused artificial light.
Fashion, reportage, architecture. Micro and Macro photography. Good for high-speed films.
Particularly indicated for use in small tanks (spirals).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



H'mm many years ago I used Unitol also 1:9 mix one shot, it might be the same formula from then till today and might be the same as Aculux 3 from my post in another thread:-

Just some info:- do you remember I loved Johnsons Unitol for B&W It ceased production and the rumour was Jessops sold it as Econotol, erm that stopped and rumour was Aculux 2 was similar... you guessed it that stopped as well.........and drum roll these people are selling it and I assume from the original formula, but it seems expensive just to try : -

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/paterson-aculux-3-360-p.asp

http://forum.mflenses.com/3-portraits-fuji-neopan-acros-100-aculux-3-9min-t20752,highlight,%2Baculux.html


PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know, supposing an identity of formulas just because the dilution proportions are the same seems a bit stretched to me. Confused


PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
I don't know, supposing an identity of formulas just because the dilution proportions are the same seems a bit stretched to me. Confused



.............easier to copy an old successful formula than create\invent your own Wink But can't find the formula to prove anything Shocked

But came across this handy link:-

http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?Film=&Developer=Gradual&mdc=Search


PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excalibur wrote:

.............easier to copy an old successful formula than create\invent your own Wink But can't find the formula to prove anything Shocked


I don't understand the background of this stupid comment you make: is this a racist allegation based on the assumption that Italians would not be able to create
a chemical formula on their own, and would have to copy it from English?
Well let me remind you that the Ornano company was founded in 1946 by the two brothers Ornano, chemical scientists who previously did work for Agfa since the 20s.
Alfredo Ornano also wrote book about the chemicals in photography, and was a regular contributor of chemicals related articles to the Ferrania magazine.

P.S. the isotactic polypropylene, which is at the base of most plastic compounds used today in world's industry, was discovered in the 50s by an Italian chemist, Giulio Natta,
who got the Nobel Prize for that in 1963. Just as a side note.


PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it just me, or the Ornano site is down?


PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
Excalibur wrote:

.............easier to copy an old successful formula than create\invent your own Wink But can't find the formula to prove anything Shocked


I don't understand the background of this stupid comment you make: is this a racist allegation based on the assumption that Italians would not be able to create
a chemical formula on their own, and would have to copy it from English?


+1 it was a note without thinking , even a single second.


PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a problem with Italians creating/manufacturing/rubbing-it-in-my-face sports cars I'll never be able to afford...I'm kidding, no I'm
not. Laughing


PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've liked Orio's results with the ST20, but shipping to the states would be expensive.


PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
Excalibur wrote:

.............easier to copy an old successful formula than create\invent your own Wink But can't find the formula to prove anything Shocked


I don't understand the background of this stupid comment you make: is this a racist allegation based on the assumption that Italians would not be able to create
a chemical formula on their own, and would have to copy it from English?
Well let me remind you that the Ornano company was founded in 1946 by the two brothers Ornano, chemical scientists who previously did work for Agfa since the 20s.
Alfredo Ornano also wrote book about the chemicals in photography, and was a regular contributor of chemicals related articles to the Ferrania magazine.

According to some sources (see, for example, David Kilpatrick writing in the British Journal of Photography (BJP) on the occasion of Geoffrey Crawley's death : link here) Chimifoto Ornano did in fact use some of Geoffery Crawley's formulae (for developers) which he had placed in the public domain by publishing in BJP.

Quote:
P.S. the isotactic polypropylene, which is at the base of most plastic compounds used today in world's industry,...

I'm not sure what this means but I don't think that it's true - do you have a source ?

Quote:
... was discovered in the 50s by an Italian chemist, Giulio Natta, who got the Nobel Prize for that in 1963. Just as a side note.

The prize of that year was awarded jointly to Karl Ziegler and Giulio Natta "for their discoveries in the field of the chemistry and technology of high polymers" - the quote is from the Nobel site. Karl Ziegler was German.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting stuff. It would be great if they sold the chemicals in powder form, cheaper for them, cheaper for us and more eco friendly. Do they?


PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sichko wrote:

According to some sources (see, for example, David Kilpatrick writing in the British Journal of Photography (BJP) on the occasion of Geoffrey Crawley's death : link here) Chimifoto Ornano did in fact use some of Geoffery Crawley's formulae (for developers) which he had placed in the public domain by publishing in BJP.


I appreciate your effort of taking the discussion more onto facts than onto mere speculations.
According to the same source you quote, Ornano named the FX-16 derivative as "DX-16 Crawley", explicitely acknowledging the origin in the name of the product.
This shows that there was no intention by Ornano of stealing the intellectual property of the author.
This does not happen, however, with the ST-20. Also in the past, in old Ornano magazine adverts the product appears labeled simply as "20 ST".
To me, it does not seem likely that a company which uses the policy they used with the FX-16 replica, would not use the same policy with another product.
However, the mention that Ornano used the formulae of that journal at least opens a possibility. I will write to the company and ask.

Quote:

The prize of that year was awarded jointly to Karl Ziegler and Giulio Natta "for their discoveries in the field of the chemistry and technology of high polymers" - the quote is from the Nobel site. Karl Ziegler was German.


According to Wikipedia, Ziegler in 1953 discovered the catalyzer of Ethilene which could create the Polyethilene.
Natta tried that catalyzer with the Propilene, but found that it could not create polymers from it. So he changed the formula by using different molecules, and he obtained the isotactic Polypropilene.
The Nobel was awarded to Ziegler too because his Ethilene catalizer was the starting point from which Natta developed the Propilene catalyzer, so he rightly deserved recognition.
But the discovery of the Isotactic Polypropilene is Natta's, not Ziegler's.

But even if it was 50-50 merit, what would your remark "Karl Ziegler was German" mean?
Would it mean that since Ziegler was German, Natta and Montedison (the Italian company for which Natta was working) were to be deprived of the recognition?

philslizzy wrote:
Interesting stuff. It would be great if they sold the chemicals in powder form, cheaper for them, cheaper for us and more eco friendly. Do they?


I don't think they sell the compound as powder. But you may try to ask them.


PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
Quote:

The prize of that year was awarded jointly to Karl Ziegler and Giulio Natta "for their discoveries in the field of the chemistry and technology of high polymers" - the quote is from the Nobel site. Karl Ziegler was German.


According to Wikipedia, Ziegler in 1953 discovered the catalyzer of Ethilene which could create the Polyethilene.
Natta tried that catalyzer with the Propilene, but found that it could not create polymers from it. So he changed the formula by using different molecules, and he obtained the isotactic Polypropilene.
The Nobel was awarded to Ziegler too because his Ethilene catalizer was the starting point from which Natta developed the Propilene catalyzer, so he rightly deserved recognition.

Heres the story - my understanding of it at least - ...

Ziegler discovered/invented a new type of catalyst for the conversion of ethylene into polyethylene. The catalyst was important because (i) it worked at low temperature and pressures (Es geht in Glas - It works in glass - according to one of Zielgers co-workers) and (ii) the material it produced was of much higher quality than that of the polyethylene then available using other methods. Natta and one of his co-workers attended a lecture in Frankfurt in 1952 where Ziegler described some of his work. Ziegler sold the Italian rights for the exploitation of his work to Montecatini - later to become Montedison. Natta was a consultant for Montecatini and, as part of the deal between Ziegler and Montecatini, three of his students worked in Zieglers laboratories in Mllheim.
Zielger patented the polyethylene work and, later, work on longer olefins, and their polymers including polypropylene. However before Zieglers second set of patents Natta patented his own polypropylene work. It look as as though there was a mismatch between what Ziegler though he was selling and what Montecatini thought they were buying. There followed a long (decades !) series of court cases. Montecatini paid damages to Ziegler and the rights to the class of catalysts were awarded to Ziegler by the US courts in 1984.
There are available a number of sources. Lots of detail is provided by the Max Planck Gesellschaft here : http://www.mpg.de/799577/S003_Flashback_082-085.pdf

Quote:
But the discovery of the Isotactic Polypropilene is Natta's, not Ziegler's.

Unfortunately not. Phillips Petroleum were also participants in the court cases and rights to isotactic polypropylene as material were awarded to them and their employees, Banks and Hogan. Their work predates the Ziegler work and uses an entirely different kind of catalyst. Standard Oil also had a claim but chose not to take part.


PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am missing your point. In this reconstruction you make, Ziegler finds the catalyst for the polyethilene, then Natta finds the catalyst for polypropilene, which you say also Ziegler does, but after Natta.
This would confirm in full what I reported from Wikipedia.

As for other people finding the catalyzer before Natta and Ziegler, why the Nobel prize wasn't awarded to them, then?


PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orio wrote:
I am missing your point. In this reconstruction you make, Ziegler finds the catalyst for the polyethilene, then Natta finds the catalyst for polypropilene, which you say also Ziegler does, but after Natta.

Perhaps I was being too cryptic. Let me try and spell it out. Ziegler discovered/invented a class of catalysts for the polymerisation of ethylene and alpha-olefins (including propylene). Ziegler had a commercial arrangement with Montecatini for them to exploit his invention in Italy. Ziegler disclosed his results to Montecatini, which would be necessary for Montecatini to use them on an industrial scale. Ziegler believed that he was in control of the development of his research as opposed to exploitation/application. However Natta, a consultant for Montecatini, began to repeat Zieglers work and extend it. This was without Zieglers knowledge or permission. However Montecatini knew about Nattas work. They were the assignees on the Natta Patents. I havent looked at the Italian patents. However have a look at US Patent 3112300 The assignors (inventors) are Natta, Pino and Mazzanti. The assignee is Montecatini. The patent describes the polymerisation of propylene to give isotactic polypropylene using Titanium tetrachloride/Triethylaluminium. This is one of the Ziegler catalysts.

Orio wrote:
According to Wikipedia, Ziegler in 1953 discovered the catalyzer of Ethilene which could create the Polyethilene.
Natta tried that catalyzer with the Propilene, but found that it could not create polymers from it.

Do you have a reference ? The Ziegler catalyst does work. Natta says so in the US patent. Now its not the best catalyst and Natta subsequently used better ones. I hesitate to use the words discovered or invented here. The courts decided that Natta/Montecatini could only have carried out this first synthesis of isotactic polypropylene with prior knowledge of the Ziegler catalysts. I have no wish to denigrate Nattas work. He carried out X-ray analysis of the new polypropylene, determined its structure and recognised the features which gave it improved physical properties. However as far as I can see the catalysts belong to Ziegler and his group.

Have a look at the Award Ceremony Speech given by a member of the committee for the 1963 Nobel prize. Selected quotes :

Professor Ziegler. Your excellent work on organometallic compounds has unexpectedly led to new polymerization reactions .

Professor Natta. You have succeeded in preparing by a new method macro molecules having a spatially regular structure.

Theres lots more - in both cases - but no mention of new catalysts from Natta.

Quote:
This would confirm in full what I reported from Wikipedia.

The subject is covered in a number of Wikipedia entries. Which one are you referring to ? This one : Ziegler-Natta catalyst ?

Quote : German Karl Ziegler, for his discovery of first titanium-based catalysts, and Italian Giulio Natta, for using them to prepare stereo regular polymers from propylene, were awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1963.


Quote:
As for other people finding the catalyzer before Natta and Ziegler, why the Nobel prize wasn't awarded to them, then?

Phillips Petroleum used a different catalyst to produce a material later identified as isotactic polypropylene. So they had a claim to the material but not to the method of producing it. If the Prize had been awarded for the material they might have been considered. However it appears to have been given for the new chemistry.

Wikipedia is a great resource but not everything it tells you is true. The Ziegler story has been documented in great detail by Heinz Martin in a book Polymers, Patents and Profits, Wiley-VCH, 2007. I dont have a copy. It costs 50 GBP or more and my resources are limited. However short sections of it are available via Google. Martin was one of the Mllheim group and he in fact prepared isotactic polypropylene at around the same time as, and using the same catalysts as Natta. So some of you might raise an eyebrow. However the relevant Patents are a matter of public record. As are the court proceedings - some of which are quite revealing.