How do I bring out the detail in the shadow?

[mo]

I am trying to put together a little series on some wooden bridges in my area,one rail and one road.They are being left to fall apart (there is a committee trying to save them but it all comes down to money) so I would like to capture some of their uniqueness.They have beautiful craftmanship and just are a joy/challege to photograph.I would appreciate some suggestions in
*How to photograph these structures.
*Lenses that would suit this type of structure photography.
*And the reason for this post how to bring out from the shadow the detail under the bridge.Is it as simple as setting the exposure for the shadow?

This would be with the T4 mount Soligor 2.8/28mm the widest angle I have at F16/500 on Fuji superia 400asa.
Thanks

[Rolf]

Hi Mo,

with film very very difficult to get this better. With digital no problem due to raw and/or HDR shots.

With film perhaps better to try the expose for the shadows - but then you will have an overexposion for the rest of the image.

Best solution is to try it on another time, where light and shadows are not so harsh.

Lens is ok to show the dimension.

[mo]

Thanks Rolf...I think this was mid afternoon light.I am bidding on a K100D super at the moment

[Excalibur]

***How do I bring out the detail in the shadow?***

Very difficult..in the old days you would expose for the shadows and in the darkroom hold a card over the projected area of the shot i.e the shadows (between the projector lens to the print paper) to allow for the correct exposure for the burnt out highlights......I suppose there is some way of doing it now in Photoshop.

[Orio]

hi Mo, a couple of advices:

1- use a low contrast colour negative film such as the Kodak Portra

2- photograph, if possible, in an overcast day. You will have more contrast with the sky, but you do not mind the sky. The contast on the objects will be much lower, and that is what you need. The absence of hard shadows will make your task easier

3- use a tripod and a remote command. Attach to your camera a flash with diffuser using a cord. Get closer to the foreground of the bridge, holding the flash in one hand and the remote in another. Point the flash to the darker parts under the bridge and use it as a fill light. You don't really need that ALL the underside of the bridge is lit. Often, to have some detail visible in the foreground is enough for the viewer to imaginate the rest

4- if your camera can take multiple exposures, and you are feeling adventurous, you can even try the painting light technique: determine the total exposure time, divide it by the number of photographs that you want to take (do it counting the number of stops on the times wheel), for instance if your reading says that you need to take a f/8 1/125 photo, you will need to take four exposures at f/8 1/30. This will set your base exposure for the photo, then at each take you will go with a torch and light a different part of the shadows at every take. You will need a collaborator that shoots the release cable for you unless you have a very long cord or an infrared remote

5- by no way you are limited to digital if you want to make a HDRI photo. if you have the software for HDRI, you just have to place your tripod and camera, take the base reading, then bracket seven times: that is, the base reading shot, plus 3 shots underexposure at interval of one stop, and 3 shots overexposure at intervals of one stop. Be careful not to touch the camera and always use a remote cable, and if possible set your mirror to be lifted (this is useful for the painting light technique as well).
Use a slide film for this taks. Why slide? Because unless you scan your negatives yourself, film labs tend to mess with the exposure of your negatives when printing, making your effort useless.
So at home, scan your slides using always the same scan manual setting (i.e. do not correct exposure in scanning software). Then compose your shots in the HDRI software.

Hope this helps
Orio

P.S. with regards of which lens to use, it depends of course from the distance and what you want to shoot of the bridge. I personally would take one "total" shot from as distant as needed to photograph the whole bridge. Then I would take a series of partial shots that show parts of the bridge closer from different angles to enhance different aspects of the architecture and making.

[Nesster]

+2 on all the advice above: for this kind of subject, early morning / evening are your friends, as are cloudy days. With negative film just bracket your shots.

Lens? typical advice is for a wide angle, and if you have space to back away, a short tele can give you a nice compressed effect. For convenience a zoom. ... in other words, any lens can work

[Scheimpflug]

Everyone above is giving great advice, but instead of spending all day bracketing and processing, how about keeping things simple and shooting it as filtered black and white?

An orange or an orange-red filter should cut the intensity of the sky noticeably and also darken the green tones a bit, two of your brightest areas, while letting more of the brown tones (the bridge & shadows) through. You still wouldn't want to expose for the shadows, but with the filtered B&W you could afford to push up the exposure a bit without blowing the highlights.

Keep in mind that depending on how you metered the first shot, you may not even have to make any adjustments or compensations if you re-shoot it with B&W film and a filter. Since the sky & grass will appear darker through the filter, the camera meter will read less light, and recommend a slower shutter speed. So if you set the exposure to match the meter, you effectively end up with the right "adjusted" exposure anyway, without even thinking about it.

[mo]

I am overwhelmed with the advice given...thank you all so much.I never thought an overcast day would be recommended and being in winter over here easy to come by! I don't have much of the technical gear suggested by Orio but I will see what I can manage with what I do have.What you have suggested in point number 4 does sound like fun!

Scheimpflug.I did not think of B&W ! I will look out for those orange filters.

I have some ideas now and will post back when I have some results.
Thanks again

[Attila]

[Orio]

Keep in mind that black and white film has less latitude than colour negative film
(that is why I suggested colour negative)

[visualopsins]

Definitely early and late day light is more dramatic and manageable. Early or late enough the underside may be illuminated!

A polarizing filter will reduce sky brightness by some stops, so overall brightness dynamic range is reduced.

[Scheimpflug]

[bbshooter]

Great advice Orio, but I do have to raise one question.You said "divide it by the number of photographs that you want to take (do it counting the number of stops on the times wheel), for instance if your reading says that you need to take a f/8 1/125 photo, you will need to take four exposures at f/8 1/30. This will set your base exposure for the photo"
Wouldn't the shutter speed be 1/1000 at f8 with four exposures to arrive at the single exposure value of 1/125 at f8? This would force Mo to shoot at what ever her highest sync speed will allow (I am assuming this is not a leaf shutter camera). If her max sync speed is 1/60 I think what she would have to do is shoot four exposures at 1/60 @f32 with fill flash to get the equivalent of 1/60 @f11 (1/125 @ f8 ).

Unless you are puposely over exposing for shadow detail. Even so 1/30 @ f8 would be 2 stops over exposed for each exposure.

[visualopsins]

I am also interested in exposure latitude of films. There is latitude in both exposure and in processing. Is latitude in processing greater? Is it better to expose more or less, and compensate in processing? I'm thinking b&w film exposure only seems to have less latitude, that the goal is the maximum range of tones between black and white only obtained by using maximum exposure latitude, leaving less (or no?) latitude for processing compensation. The questions are how much more latitude does processing have than exposure, are results better with slightly over- or under-exposure and processing compensation, and how does this vary among b&w, color, and slide films?

[Orio]

[Orio]

[Orio]

[bbshooter]

Another alternative would be to have the negatives professionally scanned
and manipulate them the same way that you would manipulate a digital file from a digital camera. But that would require a computer and software
like Photoshop, Elements or GIMP. I am not sure what resourses are available to you Mo.

[Rolf]

One thing I have forgotten this morning Mo.

You can try a slide fim instead of a colour film. Slide films have a larger dynamic range.

[Carlsson]

[Rolf]

Yes, colour film approx. 11 and slides aprox. 6-7.

Slide film has a larger contrast range

[mo]

Interesting reading guys.
I would be using my Ricoh kr10.... I only have Expired kodak Gold asa100,A generic colour asa100 film and a choice of asa 400 fuji films. I have access to Kodak B&W 400asa film.For slide film or any other I would have to look further a field to get some.
If I go to these bridges in early morning during winter I would encounter heavy fog...another challenge although I am sure there would be some nice photo opportunities!
I have a few shots other than this one taken at the same time and they were a lot better...I think it depended on which side of the bridge I stood on and sun position.
Keep the discussion going as I am picking up some handy hints.

[visualopsins]

Scout the location! Check for best angles, note orientation of bridge and path of the Sun, go there to photograph when lighting cooperates best. I'm thinking Sun behind slightly to one side, and maybe the bridge can block the Sun, use a meter-square piece of white foam board to reflect some Sunlight underneath.