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Best 3d effect lenses...suggestion?
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Every now and then, this subject comes out, a thread is opened, images are posted, only to find out, that people indicate completely different photographs as being "3D". Rolling Eyes

Since a a good number of people seems to think that to be "3D" the subject of a photo must "pop out" from the background, I can tell you straight away,
that you can obtain that effect with any lens (even a $20 lens) that is either fast enough, or long enough, for the purpose. Wink

If instead, you are one of those who think that 3D in a photo is when the viewer is able to perceive the space (the "air") between the objects,
and not to single out an object from the context, then a different discussion can open Wink

And in that discussion, I would answer you that a big part is played by factors that are not lens-related: the lighting, the composition, the colours, in order of importance.
A directional lighting, perspective based composition, and colour-separated image, has great chances to look "3D" regardless of the lens.

There are, however, some lenses, which, partly due to their micro-contrast quality, but mostly due to a particular curvature of field
(which, speaking of optical science, must be regarded as a technical defect),
are able to produce images that can make you feel the air between the objects even in the flattest lighting conditions.
And since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's an example from one of such lenses:

http://forum.mflenses.com/userpix/20115/big_3_5D__MG_5218_1.jpg

As you can see, the lighting is completely flat and undirectional.
And yet...


PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excellent post Orio.

One thing you forgot to tell us - which lens you used for that shot!


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
agent_cooper wrote:
in 90% of all pictures posted here, the dimensionaity comes to high degree from the color contrast in the frame.

In 60% of all the color red pops up.

Isn't that funny ?!


Very! Especially considering that any artist will tell you that warm colors (especially red) 'move' forward and cool colors recede.

Perhaps what you want is a lens that has rich color with little to no CA. That might help with 3D effect when one hasn't mastered proper technique (see Klaus' example above).


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
here are a few different lenses that I own that I think are 3D -ish

1958 leitz elmar 90/4



1993 helios 44m6 58/2



1964 Leitz Summicron 50/2





1954 Carl Zeiss Jena 50/2.8



PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nixland wrote:
Fresh from oven ... just tested Biometar 80/2.8 Alu this afternoon.
Some shots look quite "pop-out" to me. Smile

I'll post the rest of the Biometar photos on separate post.



I am curious to know how if I desaturate the color, so the red color wont be a "pop-out" factor Smile ... and here it is .. (just using desaturate menu in PS) ... still "popped-out" I think Smile



PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Most 3D of all my lenses is the Distagon 2/35 ZE....


PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's an similarity in CGI when using anti-aliasing and different anti-aliasing filters in the render module. Filters with edge-enhancement makes a similar pop effect Wink

Edge-enhancement makes micro contrast better.


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
As you can see, many people who post pictures where the subject "pops out" present pictures that are taken wide open.
I have nothing against them and they can really look great. The "pop out" effect shooting the lens wide open can really look great if it's done properly. But it's not what I mean with 3D. For me 3D is when you photograph an object that is dimensional, and your camera renders the dimensionality of that object. Say, for instance, you photograph a statue, that statue should feel like if you could walk around it. Ideally, the subject is in an environment where the other objects look dimensional also (like in the photo I presented above). But this rarely happens, and you need not only a proper lens but also a good dose of good luck. But at least, the main subject should look dimensional. With wide open photos, instead, you have, example, the face in perfect focus, and the rest out of focus, so you can say that the face pops out, but that way the face can not look dimensional, it looks flat. Pretty much everything (with only a few exceptions) looks flat when photographed at f/1.4. Nothing that you photograph at f/1.4 can really look dimensional, unless you have a perfect coincidence of all the other factors (lighting, composition, colours).
None of the (few) photos that I took and that feel 3D to me, has ever been taken wide open with a fast lens. I always need at least one stop down. More often, a couple of stops (how much stop down depends on the composition and the distances, of course)


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
My stance started to melt when reading your post Orio! What is your opinion on AF lenses regarding this matter?


PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
erm Well what ever the arguments are for the 3d effect.......I prefer my shots to have a "pop" in them.


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Also my idea of 3d it's "air space" around the subject, that make it "tridimensional": bokeh and wide open shots are different things.


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio, come to think about it, I remember some of you post with the Zeiss 2/28 "Hollywood" that really pops out, could you post some here?


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lauge wrote:
Orio, come to think about it, I remember some of you post with the Zeiss 2/28 "Hollywood" that really pops out, could you post some here?

Here are some samples from the Pentax version: http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/60011-super-multi-coated-pentax-1-2-28-poor-mans-distagon.html

Be sure to scroll down and also check the images on the second page. This Pentax definitely has the typical Zeiss bokeh and pop.


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Especially for Orio Wink

Voigtlander Colour Ultron 50/1.8 : f8 - ISO 800 - 1/80

Just so happened I was trying the lense out at all apertures, on the same flower, from f1.8 / 2.8 / 5.6 to f8.

[/img]


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:25 pm    Post subject: Pentacon / Meyer Orestegor 4/200mm M42 Reply with quote
A bit of dimensionality there from Pentacon 4/200mm. 5DmkII, wide-open.

Hit the road Jack!
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/143/9/1/hit_the_road_jack_by_juredolzan-d3h28ys.jpg


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
My stance started to melt when reading your post Orio! What is your opinion on AF lenses regarding this matter?


AF lenses of the digital era are built to provide a "sleepy image" that has a limited dynamic range, in order not to challenge the limits of current sensors, and relying on post-processing to optimize the histogram. They therefore create images that have lower contrast, duller colours, high resolvance but modest micro-contrast.
In addition to the above, they are also, for most part now, zoom lenses, and most of them use aspherical elements which usually improve the curvature of field problem that in some old lenses like the Hollywood Distagon is the main factor that produces "3D" looking images.
For all these reasons, AF lenses of today are usually poor contenders in the "3D look" arena.
The AF lenses of the film era might be better "3D" performers, but my knowledge of them is really limited.


PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lauge wrote:
Orio, come to think about it, I remember some of you post with the Zeiss 2/28 "Hollywood" that really pops out, could you post some here?


The "Best of lenses" Hollywood thread contains several of my Hollywood photos, see if you can find there what you remember:

http://forum.mflenses.com/carl-zeiss-distagon-t-2-28-hollywood-contax-cy-t37746,highlight,%2Bdistagon.html

I have to say, that I rarely use the Hollywood wide open. As you can see on the above page, most of my photos with it are taken stopped down. The strong curvature of field of the Hollywood lens allows to create photos that keep some dimensionality even at very narrow aperture such as in photo #5, where to keep both the trunk and the background in focus, I stopped down to f/11 (if I remember correctly). If you focus your mind on the trunk, you can obviously see the "roundness" of it, in spite of an aperture that if used with another lens would kill the roundness of about everything!

There is a couple photos wide open in my selection, the ivy photo and the candles photo. Those are definitely of the "pop out" kind and not of the "3D" kind.
Like I said, I like the "pop" effect too - it's just a different thing.
_


PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
AF lenses of the digital era are built to provide a "sleepy image" that has a limited dynamic range, in order not to challenge the limits of current sensors, and relying on post-processing to optimize the histogram. They therefore create images that have lower contrast, duller colours, high resolvance but modest micro-contrast.


I believe some of the newest AF lenses, such as the Nikon G 24/1.4 and 35/1.4 have moved somewhat closer to a Zeiss kind of rendering, with more "pop" and increased microcontrast. Still not quite the same thing, but quite different from the Canon equivalents (which are like you describe above).

Last edited by AhamB on Tue May 24, 2011 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cosina 2/28mm on K10D. Is there some of the effect or am i imagining?

Annie in the Hall


PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
Cosina 2/28mm on K10D. Is there some of the effect or am i imagining?


Yes, I do see some, too.
If you focused a little more in front (notice how fast the foreground blurs out), and perhaps opened the iris one stop faster, to smooth out the farther objects instead, it could have been even more dimensional.
This in spite of a lighting that did not help at all (distant objects with shadows and closer objects without). But the composition with the columns on different focal planes helps a lot with the perception of dimensionality.


PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I did couple of test. Consider it an assignment from Orio ... Very Happy
But this time for very close object.

Here it is ..

Contax Carl Zeiss 35/1.4 (yeahh ... I finally got this lens! Smile though I suspect this lens has something wrong inside; I'll post it later)

At wide open (f/1.4)



At f/2.8



At f/5.6



From what I see, the image has more "pop-up" effect at f/2.8 Smile
How about you guys?


PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
One more test.

This time all image looks pop-out to me, mostly due to color contrast I guess, correct me if wrong Smile

At f/1.4



At f/2.8



At f/5.6


PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
AhamB wrote:
Orio wrote:
AF lenses of the digital era are built to provide a "sleepy image" that has a limited dynamic range, in order not to challenge the limits of current sensors, and relying on post-processing to optimize the histogram. They therefore create images that have lower contrast, duller colours, high resolvance but modest micro-contrast.


I believe some of the newest AF lenses, such as the Nikon G 24/1.4 and 35/1.4 have moved somewhat closer to a Zeiss kind of rendering, with more "pop" and increased microcontrast. Still not quite the same thing, but quite different from the Canon equivalents (which are like you describe above).


Yes, they do IMO. Here is examples:

AF-S NIKKOR 24/1.4G @f5.6


AF-S NIKKOR 24/1.4G @f8


AF-S NIKKOR 35/1.4G @f5.6


AF-S NIKKOR 35/1.4G @f8


All were shot hand-held, developed by C1.


PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nixland, stopping down does not help much when you have a frontal subject of small size with a distant frontal background, all in flat lightning. It is unavoidable to obtain flat photos in such conditions.

Koji, that Nikkor 1.4/35 surely renders great dimensionality! And the 24mm is no slouch either.

_


PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Even modern Cosina lens does it too.

CV Heliar Classic 75/1.8, BESSA-T, Fuji RDPIII, @f4


CV Heliar Classic 75/1.8, Leica M8, @f2 (this uses shallow DoF, guess focus)


I do not have higher/larger F-stop samples yet. My avator shows this lens.

Last edited by koji on Wed May 25, 2011 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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