LF shutter :(

[pulatom]

Hello. I'm thinking about making a DIY 4x5" camera and I'm not sure how to choose a good lens with a shutter. I've found something like this, but it seems to lack the shutter. How can I find a compatible one and where?

[Pancolart]

Why not using Pentacon Six body for instance. Just remove mirror and make mask to prevent light leaks. I guess you can get it for 30 EUR in bad shape.

[pulatom]

You mean using P6 as a shutter only? I was thinking about making a box type camera like the early daguerreotype ones, without tilt/shift (I don't think I'll need it for portraits). I have no idea how to fit a P6 body to the front standard (besides it would look kinda weird).

[danfromm]

Here is a list, probably incomplete, of leaf shutters that gives the key dimension, the diaphragm's maximum diameter: http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/pratique/Les_obturateurs_centraux.html

www.skgrimes.com has a shorter list.

Short answer, there's probably only one shutter that will accept a 300/4.5 Tessar, Compound #5. These are scarce and expensive. Alternatives include Sinar Copal (behind the lens, in fact behind the front standard), Packard (likewise, effectively two speeds, B and 1/20), and, if you can find a big one, Luc (goes in front of the lens, otherwise is much like a Packard).

Now that I think of it, the Mentor Panorama (see, e.g., http://www.ebay.de/itm/8792-Mentor-Panorama-2-13x18cm-Tessar-4-5-360-Carl-/270415992107?pt=DE_Foto_Camcorder_Analogkameras&hash=item3ef60c952b) has a behind the lens shutter built into its front standard.

Buy a Mentor. Or, since Sinar bits are inexpensive, learn the Sinar system, get the bits, and assemble a camera that will do what you want.

[pulatom]

Thanks . So it seems it won't be as easy as I thought. Maybe I'll just buy a Mentor or at least its front standard with lens and shutter .

[luisalegria]

I would say that the lens and shutter are the last things to worry about with such a project.

If you get the mechanics right then you can try out as many lenses as you like, or can find.

And of course any 135mm lens from a 9x12 plate camera or 4x5 Press camera will cover 4x5, but with very limited movements. These are extremely common in various brands and types. You are not limited to Mentor.

As for your lens in barrel - you can use it without a shutter. Use slow film and a small stop or a strong filter and you can use your stopwatch and a lens cap, just like in the old days !

[danfromm]

Luis, I'm not sure that lens and shutter should be ignored in favor of the practical details of design and construction. A lens -- or the idea of getting one -- can generate ideas.

I don't know whether you know it, but most of my lenses longer than 180 mm are in barrel. The exceptions are 210 mm. I can't imagine using ND filters and a "lens cap" shutter with any of them. My solution, which works well for lenses up to 480 mm, is to mount the lens in front of a #1 shutter. I haven't used my 610/9 Apo Nikkor yet, will try it real soon now. Putting it in front of a #1 limits it to a maximum aperture of around f/16 (I've tested, that's what it is), and I think I can live with that. Putting my 900/10 Apo Saphir in front of a #1 is physically possible, too limiting. Hanging a Compound #5 in front of it seems my best bet.

I think pulatom did very well to wonder how to use a large lens in barrel before buying one one. Many of these beasties are, even when obtained for free, very much poisoned gifts.

pulatom, it isn't obvious to the naked eye but many lenses delivered in barrel have cells that are not direct fits in standard shutters. The cells can sometimes be mounted in a standard shutter with the help of adapters; a cell screws into the adapter, the cell + adapter screw into the shutter.

Adapters are usually very expensive. A used lens in shutter usually costs less than adapters to mount the equivalent lens in barrel in a shutter plus a shutter. Usually. The late Steve Grimes charged me $500 for a Copal #0, extracting a 38/4.5 Biogon's cells from a dead aerial camera shutter, and making adapters to hold the cells in the #0. Prices have risen since then.

[luisalegria]

I would assume that lenses in barrel are rarely going to fit in shutter, without the services of someone like S.K. Grimes.

I have only had one such case - where elements from a 162mm Wollensak lens in barrel could be used to replace defective elements for the same lens in shutter.

If you want a much larger shutter, I suggest you look for the 15" Graflex Optar/Wollensak Raptar Tele lens, which are quite common and can be had surprisingly cheap. The lens itself is not very sharp, but they are often seen in #4 Ilex shutters. It may be cheaper to get one of these than to buy a separate Ilex #4. The one I have is almost 60mm

[Pancolart]

Here a big one for you: Click here to see on Ebay

[danfromm]

[luisalegria]

I am measuring the wrong thing I suppose -

Mine is a rim-set, which is the common one found on the Tele-Optars

My measurements - front cell thread = 61.4mm

Actual maximum aperture - about 41.5mm, with blades opened to max.

I would think this is still much larger than a Copal #1 though.

[pulatom]

I think I'll be happy with only one lens, but it has to be somewhat longer than standard (85mm equiv.) and as fast as possible to obtain that gorgeous BG blur . I was thinking about that Mentor camera and Zeiss lens because they are relatively inexpensive (bear in mind that I'm a poor artist ) and easy to find in PL.

[Scheimpflug]

[Sevo]

Given the useful apertures in LF, you can get a away with the lens cap thing. Sinar-Copal shutters are fairly affordable, too, and Thornton Pickard rollerblind shutters are even cheaper (but usually need a rebuild and only offer one time).

[danfromm]

Scheimpflug, Sevo, you're right, people do indeed use very simple shutters.

In general, though, they're a bad idea for people like me who shoot MF (2x3) color reversal film. MF forces relatively large apertures to get enlargeability; I typically shoot between f/11 and f/22 and have a couple of lenses with larger recommended apertures. With ISO 100 film this means exposures no longer than 1/60th. Color reversal film punishes poor exposure.

The people who get the most benefit from poorly-timed shutters shoot negative film and usually don't enlarge a lot. Negative film has incredible latitude, permits poor exposure. Not enlarging a lot allows the use of small apertures.

It all comes down to which constraints one wants to accept.

[pulatom]

Well, I won't be shooting anything in colour but even an ISO 100 B&W negative will need a rather short exposure when shooting wide open in bright sunlight (I think of at least 1/125 like I use in MF). So an all-manual shutter won't make it .

[Sevo]

[danfromm]

Subfanatic, thanks for the kind word.

A small correction. I don't have a site. My lens diary was published on galerie-photo.info, the French high resolution photography site, with substantial assistance from Emmanuel Bigler. Henri Peyre owns and operates galerie-photo.info. The site has many excellent articles and tutorials. Discussions in its forum are generally at a very high level. I'm grateful to Emmanuel for his help and to Henri for publishing, so far, two of my articles on his site. My two articles there are a tiny fraction of the site's riches.

I mention this not to be a stickler -- Klaus will tell you that I am one -- but to make sure that credit is given where it is due.

All being well, more of my pieces will sooner or later be published there. A few are pending: yet another macro spreadsheet that does closeup flash calculations and more; an account of Apo- and Process-Nikkors; an account of the Horseman 2x LF Teleconverter; and, eventually, a discussion of "Big Bertha" long lens SLRs with an account of the one I'm working on.

[pulatom]

Thanks for all the advice, it'll be much easier for me to reach my goal now . I don't consider myself handy enough to make a reliable shutter on my own, but the rest of a camera shouldn't be a problem .