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Neare
Joined: 09 Sep 2009 Posts: 43 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: Using Medium Format lenses on 35mm |
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Neare wrote:
Ok, got a question.
If I were to use a Hassy 80mm f2.8 on my Contax RX for example,
When shot wide open, would the resulting DOF be the same size as using it wide open on the hassy itself.
As of course, the 2.8 on MF is really equal to around f1.5 on 35mm.
So would that 80mm 2.8 produce DOF equal to that of a f1.5 lens (made for 35mm)?
Note: This question has nothing to do with focal length. I understand it will be like shooting a short tele, and the DOF will be increased to the eye through that, but this is generally speaking. From the image circles point of view. _________________ Photos |
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sichko
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 Posts: 2475 Location: South West UK
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Using Medium Format lenses on 35mm |
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sichko wrote:
Neare wrote: |
As of course, the 2.8 on MF is really equal to around f1.5 on 35mm.
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No. It's still 2.8.
For DOF calculations try ...
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html _________________ John |
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Neare
Joined: 09 Sep 2009 Posts: 43 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Using Medium Format lenses on 35mm |
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Neare wrote:
sichko wrote: |
Neare wrote: |
As of course, the 2.8 on MF is really equal to around f1.5 on 35mm.
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No. It's still 2.8.
For DOF calculations try ...
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html |
Sorry, let me reword that.
The 2.8 on 6x6 produces the same DOF as a 1.5 lens does on 35mm. _________________ Photos |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Crop = means really crop nothing else, digital cameras crop an area from genuine images what you can take with Hasselblad nothing else change. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10472 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Using Medium Format lenses on 35mm |
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poilu wrote:
Neare wrote: |
Sorry, let me reword that.
The 2.8 on 6x6 produces the same DOF as a 1.5 lens does on 35mm. |
a F2.8 on a 6x6 produce dof as a F1.2 on 36mm
a F6.7 on 6x6 produce the same dof as
= a F2.8 on a 36mm
= a F2 on APS
= a F1.4 on 4:3
use this Zeiss table to find other combination
download Bokeh from Zeiss to read about those topics _________________ T* |
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Scheimpflug
Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 1888 Location: New Zealand / USA
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Using Medium Format lenses on 35mm |
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Scheimpflug wrote:
Very informative. Thanks for the description and the link, poilu. _________________ Sigma DP1, Nikon D40 (hers ), Polaroid x530, Pentax P30t, Pentax P50, (P30t/P50 K-A to Nikon F body mount conversion)
Nikon: 18-55/3.5-5.6 "G ED II DX" (F) Soligor: 28/2.8 (FL->F converted), 135/3.5 (F), 3x TC (F, modified) Kalimar: 28-85/3.5 (F)
Vivitar: 70-210/2.8-4.0 Version 3 (F), Tele 500/6.3 Preset (F), 19/3.8 (F) Minolta: 300/5.6 (SR/MC/MD pending F conversion)
Tamron: 28/2.8 (Adaptall) Panagor: 28/2.5 (FD) Aetna: 300/5.6 (F) Osawa: MC 28/2.8 (F)
Vintage Lenses: Dallmeyer: 1940s A.M. 14in 356mm f4 (ULF->M42) 1930s Adon Telephoto Taylor, Taylor & Hobson: 1880s Rapid Rectilinear 8 1/2 x 6 1/2 11.31in f/8 (LF->?)
Parts Lenses: Nikon 35-135/3.5-4.5 (F), Sigma 70-210/4.5 (F), Nikon 50/1.8 Series E (F) |
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indianadinos
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 Posts: 1310 Location: Toulouse, France
Expire: 2011-12-05
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:23 am Post subject: |
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indianadinos wrote:
Hi,
Thanks for the explanations and the link, i was asking myself the same question ...
Cheers _________________ Please visit my blogs Shooting with a Pentax K10D / FF Visions
Takumar: 24/3.5, 28/3.5, 35/2, 35/3.5, 50/1.4, 55/1.8, 85/1.8, 105/2.8, 120/2.8, 135/3.5, 150/4, 200/4
Pentax-K: M28/2.8, K28/3.5, M50/1.4, A50/1.7, M50/4 Macro, K85/1.8, K105/2.8, K135/2.5, M200/4, M70-150/4
Zeiss: Flektogon 20/2.8, 20/4, 35/2.4, 35/2.8, Tessar 50/2.8, Pancolar 50/1.8, Biotar 58/2, Sonnar 135/3.5, Sonnar 180/2.8
Meyer: Primagon 35/4.5, Domiplan 50/2.8, Oreston 50/1.8, Primoplan 58/1.9, Trioplan 100/2.8, Orestor 100/2.8, Orestor 135/2.8
Schacht/Steinheil: Travenar 90/2.8, Travenon 135/4.5, Quinar 135/2.8, Quinar 135/3.5
Russian: MIR 37B, Industar 50/3.5, Helios 44M & 44M-2, Jupiter 37A
P6: Flektogon 50/4, Biometar 80/2.8, Orestor 300/4
Nikkor: Nikkor-O 35/2, Micro 55/3.5, Nikkor-S 50/1.4, Nikkor-Q 135/2.8
Fuji: EBC 28/3.5, EBC 55/3.5 Macro, EBC 135/2.5
Misc Lenses: Kiron 105/2.8 Macro, Tamron SP90/2.5
... and a few other Vivitar, Tamron, Sigma and Soligor lenses ...
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vulko
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:33 am Post subject: |
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vulko wrote:
Attila wrote: |
Crop = means really crop nothing else, digital cameras crop an area from genuine images what you can take with Hasselblad nothing else change. |
DOF will also change. See the table below. |
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sichko
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 Posts: 2475 Location: South West UK
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Using Medium Format lenses on 35mm |
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sichko wrote:
poilu wrote: |
Neare wrote: |
Sorry, let me reword that.
The 2.8 on 6x6 produces the same DOF as a 1.5 lens does on 35mm. |
a F2.8 on a 6x6 produce dof as a F1.2 on 36mm
a F6.7 on 6x6 produce the same dof as
= a F2.8 on a 36mm
= a F2 on APS
= a F1.4 on 4:3
use this Zeiss table to find other combination
download Bokeh from Zeiss to read about those topics |
Here's the caption which accompanies the table ...
Each line of this table contains the equivalent f-numbers that have the same depth of filed figures with the same angular fields. Formats are each cropped to the 3:4 aspect ratio, aperture values are rounded to half-stops, and the left-hand column in blue shows the f-number as a fraction of the format diagonals. The lower lines represent the maximum reasonable f-numbers with respect to image degradation by diffraction..
Note that it refers to the same angular fields.
Presumably, this means that in order to achieve a DOF on a FF camera at f/2.8, which is the same the DOF on a 6x7 at f.6.7, it is necessary to change the focal length on moving from one format to another. So instead of using an 80 mm lens on a 6x7 one uses something like a 35 mm lens on FF. Or have I missed something ? _________________ John |
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Eugen Mezei
Joined: 17 May 2008 Posts: 266
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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Eugen Mezei wrote:
Budget tip 1:
Don't hunt ePay for that f 1.2 K-bayonet or even more expensive M42 lens. (Branded by smart sellers as Tomioka made.) Better buy for the same money or even less a 6x6 camera with the standard 80 mm f2.8.
Budget tip 2:
Don't hunt that portrait focal of 80, 90, 100 or 105 mm (I'm sure you have plenty of 135 mm already), better buy an adapter and use the above lens you bought with your 6x6 camera.
Eugen |
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josedad
Joined: 10 Feb 2010 Posts: 15 Location: Indonesia
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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josedad wrote:
If you shot an object with 6x6 lens on 35mm with same composition as if you shot with 6x6 camera, you`ll loose its `blur` since the distance to the object become longer. The longer distance to the object, the wider DOF. Unless you shot smaller object.. CMIIW _________________ Canon 500d, Contax 139 Quartz, Nikon FM2n, Nikon F3Hp, Minox 35 ML, Leica Minizoom, Contax TVS, Bronica ETRS-i
18-55mm II, Canon 55mm f1.2 SSC, Leitz Wetzlar 80~200 f4 Vario Elmar R, CZJ Tessar 58 2.8, Sears 200 f3.5, Zuiko 50mm f1.4, CZ Planar*T 50 f1.7, Raynox 25 f3.5, Samyang 18-35, Epoque 0.65 wide conv. Practikar 80~200 f4, Nikkor 80~200 f4, Yashica ML 28 f2.8, Yashica ML 35 f2.8, Chinon 135 f2.8, Super Takumar 200 f4
Visit My Flickr! |
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CarbonR
Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 1969 Location: Clermont-Ferrand, France
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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CarbonR wrote:
Eugen Mezei wrote: |
Budget tip 1:
Don't hunt ePay for that f 1.2 K-bayonet or even more expensive M42 lens. (Branded by smart sellers as Tomioka made.) Better buy for the same money or even less a 6x6 camera with the standard 80 mm f2.8.
Budget tip 2:
Don't hunt that portrait focal of 80, 90, 100 or 105 mm (I'm sure you have plenty of 135 mm already), better buy an adapter and use the above lens you bought with your 6x6 camera.
Eugen |
This doesn't exactly works for 85mm lenses : a lens for MF won't be as fast as a 24x36 85mm lens _________________ Cameras : Canon 5D, Pentax K100D, Pentax 6x7, Spotmatic
Lenses : 15mm to 1000mm (24x36)
My websites : [FR & ENG]Takumar - the eyes of the Spotmatic : info about all Takumar lenses // Kogaku - My photo site
I am selling : Takumar lenses and rare Pentax bodies, pm me if you're interested in something [MFLenses feed-back]
Information on Takumar lenses with samples :
Wide angle : Takumar 15/3.5 15mm, Takumar 17/4 17mm, Takumar 18/11 18mm, Takumar 20/4.5 20mm, Takumar 24/3.5 24mm, Takumar 28/3.5 V1 28mm, Takumar 28/3.5 V2 28mm, Takumar 35/2 V1 35mm, Takumar 35/2 V2 35mm, Takumar 35/2.3 35mm, Takumar 35/3.5 35mm, Takumar 35/4 35mm
Standard : Takumar 50/1.4 V1 50mm, Takumar 50/1.4 V2 50mm, Takumar 50/3.5 50mm, Takumar 50/4 50mm, Takumar 55/2 55/1.8 55mm, Takumar 55/2.2 V1 55mm, Takumar 55/2.2 V2 55mm, Takumar 58/2 58mm, Takumar 58/2.4 58mm
Short tele : Takumar 83/1.9 83mm, Takumar 85/1.8 85/1.9 85mm, Takumar 85/1.8 85mm, Takumar 100/2 100mm, Takumar 100/3.5 100mm, Takumar 100/4 100mm, Takumar 105/2.8 V1 105mm, Takumar 105/2.8 V2 105mm, Takumar 120/2.8 120mm
Telephoto : Takumar 135/2.5 V1 135mm, Takumar 135/2.5 V2 135mm, Takumar 135/3.5 V1 135mm, Takumar 135/3.5 V2 135mm, Takumar 150/4 V1 150mm, Takumar 150/4 V2 150mm
Long tele : Takumar 200/3.5 200mm, Takumar 200/4 200mm, Takumar 200/5.6 200mm, Takumar 300/4 V1 300mm, Takumar 300/4 V2 300mm, Takumar 300/4 V3 300mm, Takumar 300/6.3 300mm, Takumar 400/5.6 400mm, Takumar 500/4.5 500mm, Takumar 500/5 500mm, Takumar 1000/8 V1 1000mm, Takumar 1000/8 V2 1000mm
Zoom : Zoom-Takumar 45~125/4 , Zoom-Takumar 70~150/4.5 , Zoom-Takumar 85~210/4.5 , Zoom-Takumar 135~600/6.7
Achromatic : Ultra-Achromatic-Takumar 85/4.5 , Ultra-Achromatic-Takumar 300/5.6 300mm |
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PaulC
Joined: 23 Dec 2008 Posts: 2318
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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PaulC wrote:
If you shoot with an MF 80mm lens at f2.8 on a 35mm camera you will get exactly the same DoF as shooting with an 80mm f2.8 lens designed for 35mm.
All the confusion about DoF arises from a failure to understand that the charts assume that a 35mm shot will be magnified for viewing by a different amount than a medium format shot. If they are magnified by the same amount (i.e. if you crop a 35mm shape from the centre of a 6x6 neg and blow it up) and then compared they will be exactly the same.
You can't cheat the gods of maths and money by buying a medium format f2.8 lens and turning it into an f1.2 lens just by sticking it on a 35mm camera, more's the pity. _________________ View or buy my photos at:
http://shutterstock.com/g/paulcowan |
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 10966 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:10 am Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Magnification is a factor with print viewing distance. The printed image viewed far away has more dof than when viewed close. For example, my avatar image viewed at 8x12" from 18" away is out of focus, but when viewed at 1.3x2" from 18" away looks in-focus because of increased dof due to less magnification; same as result seeing 8x12" print from 18"x6=108" away.
I have a question about dof seen in viewfinder. For a given size print what viewing distance shows the same dof seen in the viewfinder? I think that can be calculated if the 'virtual' size of the viewfinder image seen by the eye is known. Anybody know? (http://forum.mflenses.com/viewfinder-distance-from-eye-to-focus-screen-t29737.html) _________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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RioRico
Joined: 12 Mar 2010 Posts: 1120 Location: California or Guatemala or somewhere
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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RioRico wrote:
DOF is a complex function of photography, presentation, and perception. With ALL ELSE HELD THE SAME, moving a lens between cameras with different sized frames will NOT change the DOF. Cut a picture from a magazine. Draw upon it nested rectangles of 56x42mm, 36x24mm, 24x18mm - those are the sizes of 645, 135/FF, and APS frames. THE PICTURE REMAINS THE SAME! Smaller frames merely see less of it.
That is the photography. When you look at different crops from different distances, you've changed the presentation. When someone with different visual acuity sees the image(s), perception has changed. Presentation and perception affect DOF more than does moving a lens between cameras. But moving lenses between cameras probably incites the photographer to use different distances and angles and exposures, which changes DOF.
Thinking about crap.factor is confusing and misleading and induces all sorts of misconceptions about optical properties. But because format differences cause different behaviour by the photographer, there is a handy ROT (rule of thumb) when using a 135/FF lens on an APS camera: nudge the lens' DOF scale by at least 1 f-stop. When I put a Pentax M28/2.8 lens on my K20D and I set the aperture to f/11, I read the DOF scale at f/8, or maybe a bit under under. I do this mostly when hyperfocusing wide lenses for maximal DOF like if I want sharpness from 1m to infinity. This is what the Zeiss table means: you won't approach a scene the same way with different format cameras, so adjust the lens to your behaviour. _________________ Too many film+digi cams+lenses, oh my -- Pentax K20D, K-1000, M42s, more
The simple truth is this: There are no neutral photographs. --F-Stop Fitzgerald |
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