Home
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist RegisterRegister ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in

List of lens diagrams: triplets, planars & hybrid lenses
View previous topic :: View next topic  


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:13 am    Post subject: List of lens diagrams: triplets, planars & hybrid lenses Reply with quote

I prepared a list of common triplet-designs + list of coresponding lenses, because I was bored by searching on 10+ websites whenever I needed this info. Maybe it could be useful for somebody else too:



There is no time sequence, only simple logical relations. Many diagrams are really schematic and doesn't represent all nuances - only basic signs.


//edit: here is updated version:

- - - - triplets - - - - // - - - - planars - - - - // - - - - hybrid lenses - - - -


Last edited by no-X on Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:00 pm; edited 5 times in total


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tremendous work, thank you! I have stored it locally for future reference.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks!


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relayer wrote:
I think that Asahi improve sharpness and coating. but lost something in bokeh Smile

I think this is true almost for all manufacturers. Their target was sharpness and contrast, so all corrections were aimed on these qualities and bokeh suffered a bit.

I'll try to make some of the lists a bit more complete by adding some Zeiss-Opton examples. I also forgot the cathegory, which includes 135mm Sonnars/Jupiters.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

great work, thanks!


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tessar : There is also the Takumar 50/3.5
Heliar : The S-M-C Macro Takumar has the same optical formula as the Bellows, the obly changes are the focusing system and the automatic diaphragme (with only 6 blades instead of the 8 stard shaped of the bellows) Wink


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for hints. Here is the updated version (added some Zeiss lenses, mainly C/Y, some QBM lenses, some Nikkors, Takumars etc. and missing 135mm Sonnars)



//typo fixed


Last edited by no-X on Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, many thanks for sharing your excellent work ...


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no-X wrote:
Thanks for hints. Here is the updated version (added some Zeiss lenses, mainly C/Y, some QBM lenses, some Nikkors, Takumars etc. and missing 135mm Sonnars)


Is the Nikkor-P 105/2.8 the 105/2.5?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corrected, thanks.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a really interesting diagram, thanks for posting it!

Next question, what is the Nikkor 105/2.8 ? Looking here I don't see a 105/2.8 with the required number of elements and groups?

If its the second type of 105/2.5, where does the Schneider Xenotar design fit into your scheme? i understand the second design Nikkor 105/2.5 was a Xenotar-style lens.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is quite problematic, I think. Biometar/Xenotar are sometimes considered as a hybrid design based on triplet with signs of double-guass and anytimes as simplified planar/double-gauss...

Both Biometar and Primoplan has the same number of elements, cemented doublet at the same position and diaphragm at the same position, too.

I'm not physicist, but I think the only difference is in other balace of corrections. Primoplan has strongly curved cemented surface and near symmetrical semifinal element, while Biometar has near flat cemented surface and strongly curved semifinal element.

Nikkor's rear group is closer to the Biometar/Xenotar, while the front group with very thick cemented doublet is closer to tele-lenses based on Ernostar/Sonnar...

I'll possibly move this lens to different cathegory though.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a sterling piece of work. Thanks


patrickh

This forum is becoming quite the clearing house for information on old lenses


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonderful, thanks!

Last edited by overmywaders on Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no-X wrote:
Thanks for hints. Here is the updated version (added some Zeiss lenses, mainly C/Y, some QBM lenses, some Nikkors, Takumars etc. and missing 135mm Sonnars)



//typo fixed

Excellent work - many thanks.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idea WOW Idea
thank you no-X!


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is very well made one..
Excellent. Finally i am able to understand the comparisions ...
Thanks a lot..


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done - a useful piece!


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the provided details.
Informations about the Steinheil Cassars and others would be helpful, too.
A well honoured work you have done with providing your list.

Very Happy


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi no-x, than you for helpful information. What about the Tairs? I think, they are Triplets too.
Tair-2/3
Tair-11


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excelent!!!!

Its in the same level of your comparision of 35 mm lenses, pancolar, 135 mm, etc.

Now I can see why the rendering of my mamiya TL 2,8/135 mm lens (ernostar) is so different than the CZJ 2,5/135 sonnar one.

But I have a doubt :

1- The mamiya 2,8/135 first version (TL) is the ernostar schame
See the link posted in http://freenet-homepage.de/stauber/mamiya-nc/m42_mamiya_135_2.8_tl.htm

2- The mamiya 2,8/135- 2nd version -DTL- had the same schame than the first version.
See http://freenet-homepage.de/stauber/mamiya-nc/m42_mamiya_135_2.8_dtl.htm

3- The mamiya 2,8/135 3rd version is the SX had the same design (4/4) that the 2nd.
See http://freenet-homepage.de/stauber/mamiya-nc/m42_mamiya_sx_135_2.8.htm

4- But the rolleinar (made by mamiya) 2,8/135 isn't the TL, DTL or SX version
Becuase it's a sonnar design??? (4/4)
See http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Rollei_QBM_Schneider_dt.html#Rolleinar

5- and Rolleinar is not the last mamiya CS 2,8/135 lens (5/4).
See http://freenet-homepage.de/stauber/mamiya-nc/cs_135_2.8.htm

Rolleinar-Mamioya isn't clear to me.

Rino.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



4/4 construction is typical Ernostar. Typical sign of Sonnar is (at least one) cemented triplet:



(while Primoplan is Ernostar with cemented doublet instead of the 2nd element)

These Rolleinars were manufactured by Mamiya and because of that I mentioned "Mamiya-Rolleinar" in the list.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, NoX

But did you note the following:

The second, thick element of the rolleinar (same as the present in the sonnars 135 lenses), is more similar to the sonnar 2nd and 3rd cemented elements (in only one element) than to the 2nd ans 3rd elements in the ernostar?

The ernostar didn't have a thick 2nd element.



Rino.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thickness depends on focal length and speed of the particular lens. The longer focal length, the thicker element. The triplet and ernostar in the picture examples are valid for standard lenses. Basic Ernostar is described as a lens consisting of two positive elements (meniscus), one negative element and one positive element at the end of optical block.

Despite many lenses are marketed as Sonnars, they are based on Ernostar designs and even the patent descriptions call them Ernostars.

Anyway, here is the rest...

double-gauss:


triplets:


hybrid designs:


PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to suggest a few lenses to add to your list.

1. Nikkor 135/3.5 (pre-Ai) falls into "Sonnar (simplified, 4 elements)"
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/6070nikkor/telephoto/135mm.htm

2. Nikkor 135/3.5 (Ai, Ai-S), Nikkor-Q 135/2.8 fall into "Ernostar"
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/135mmnikkor/index.htm

3. Nikkor pre-Ai and Ai 180/2.8, Leitz Elmarit 180/2.8 are... well, they are Sonnars, but yet another type; this optical construction was shared by many 135mm and 180mm lenses:
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/late70nikkor/telephoto/180mm.htm

3. Nikkor pre-Ai 85/1.8 is "Biotar / Xenon"
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/preAI70/85mm.htm

4. Nikkor Ai, Ai-S 85/2 are "5-element Takumar (hybrid of Ernostar and simplified Ultron"
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/85mmnikkor/85mm2.htm