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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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 Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: Which MF system to choose? |
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Spotmatic wrote:
I'm thinking to invest in a MF system, but I'm unsure which system would be the best choice. Maybe you can help me decide?
An important point is that I'm *not* much of a tripod shooter. So the camera should be perfectly usable in the field without a tripod. As far as I understand the Pentax 6x7 (while my 1st choice) would not be the perfect option because of the harsh mirror movement (that's why the MLU version is more popular). The Pentax 645 system would then be a better choice for me? Especially because the 645D will be for real in 2010.
My dream camera from when I was a kid is the Hasselblad 500 C/M. How would this camera do in the field?
Maybe I'm overlooking other systems such as the Kowa Super 66, Norita, Bronica EC/ECTL? What about the Kiev 88 and 60's?
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Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 57865
Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Forget Kiev an P6 , most of them have trouble, hard to find good one.
I am more than happy with P645 lightweight works perfect handheld, cheap.
You can use at least four system on it. P6,Kiev-88, Pentax 6x7, and P645. I think Hasselblad adapter also available.
Ah "King of MF" (Larry) also have it and kept it even if he did try many others like P6x7 and Rollei 6xxx
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Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
Last edited by Attila on Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CarbonR
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 1969
Location: Clermont-Ferrand, France
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: |
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CarbonR wrote:
Hasselblad is a square format (6x6), not the 645 and the 67, this is a different approach for me.
I always use my 67 handheld, I currently have the 55/3.5 and the 200/4 (I'm searching for the 105/2.4 and the 135/4, and the wood handle). With a 400 iso film, I find it rather usable, I already tested 1/125s with the 200. Drawback : it is a heavy, noisy (when I shoot with my Spotmatic just after the 67, I dont hear the miror of the SP  ) and bulk system. But the bigger format allows great enlargings without grain, comparing to the 24x36 
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Standard : Takumar 50/1.4 V1 50mm, Takumar 50/1.4 V2 50mm, Takumar 50/3.5 50mm, Takumar 50/4 50mm, Takumar 55/2 55/1.8 55mm, Takumar 55/2.2 V1 55mm, Takumar 55/2.2 V2 55mm, Takumar 58/2 58mm, Takumar 58/2.4 58mm
Short tele : Takumar 83/1.9 83mm, Takumar 85/1.8 85/1.9 85mm, Takumar 85/1.8 85mm, Takumar 100/2 100mm, Takumar 100/3.5 100mm, Takumar 100/4 100mm, Takumar 105/2.8 V1 105mm, Takumar 105/2.8 V2 105mm, Takumar 120/2.8 120mm
Telephoto : Takumar 135/2.5 V1 135mm, Takumar 135/2.5 V2 135mm, Takumar 135/3.5 V1 135mm, Takumar 135/3.5 V2 135mm, Takumar 150/4 V1 150mm, Takumar 150/4 V2 150mm
Long tele : Takumar 200/3.5 200mm, Takumar 200/4 200mm, Takumar 200/5.6 200mm, Takumar 300/4 V1 300mm, Takumar 300/4 V2 300mm, Takumar 300/4 V3 300mm, Takumar 300/6.3 300mm, Takumar 400/5.6 400mm, Takumar 500/4.5 500mm, Takumar 500/5 500mm, Takumar 1000/8 V1 1000mm, Takumar 1000/8 V2 1000mm
Zoom : Zoom-Takumar 45~125/4 , Zoom-Takumar 70~150/4.5 , Zoom-Takumar 85~210/4.5 , Zoom-Takumar 135~600/6.7
Achromatic : Ultra-Achromatic-Takumar 85/4.5 , Ultra-Achromatic-Takumar 300/5.6 300mm |
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edumad
Joined: 11 Feb 2009
Posts: 348
Location: Esposende, Portugal
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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edumad wrote:
The Pentax 645 NII seems interesting and well regarded. I think Pentax really is coming out with a 645D, but it might take a while.
You can also use Pentax 6x7 lenses on it with adapter and those 67 or 645 lenses can also be used on K mount bodies (via adapter) if you want to play with them 
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Farside
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 6557
Location: Ireland
Expire: 2013-12-27
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Farside wrote:
From what I've seen and heard of the P645, it would be a good choice and especially if you fancy blowing the price of a small car on a digital back some time in the future. 
The P645 is dead close the to Mamiya 645 in terms of use, so in a distantly-related kind of way, I suppose I could recommend at least having a close look at one. With both, you have a choice, as Attila says, of several lens ranges.
I'd not bother with a Kiev, unless I was stuck and by the time you shell out for a re-worked one, you'd be better off buying a good used Pentax or Mamiya.
I can recommend a Pentacon Six, but many others wouldn't; I was lucky enough to get one that had been well taken care of and serviced/reworked at some point, so I've had none of the issues others have experienced.
I've no opinion of the Pentax 6x7, save that it's a big brute and I do fancy one.
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rawhead
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Posts: 1525
Location: Boston, MA
Expire: 2014-04-29
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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rawhead wrote:
I have two P6s and one Kiev-60 (and a Kiev-6C on the way from Grizzlybear), and I would actually recommend the Kiev-60 over the P6s. As much as I love the look and feel of Pentacon Six TL, they're just too problematic, especially if you, like me, don't have the money to pay double to triple what you paid for the P6 to overhaul them.
The reason why I would recommend the Kiev-60 over the P6 is that the former has a bunch of the same problems as the latter, but because of their very simple make, they are fairly easy to service yourself. I fixed a shutter timing issue myself, and I'm going to crack it open soon to fix the overlapping frames issue.
Also, the focusing screen, WLF, and TTL prism are better (brighter/easier to focus) than their P6 counterparts.
With that said, I'm thoroughly enjoying the results I'm getting from my new Bronica SQ-B + 4 lenses I picked up for $400 on Craig's List. If what you want is to just get into MF, I think these Bronicas are quite nice. The reason why I can't let go of my Pentacon Six mount bodies is because of one particular lens: the Hartblei PCS 45mm f3.5 Super Rotator tilt shift lens. While it can be attached to a Pentax/Mamiya/Contax 645 body, the only 6x6 system that can accept it is P6. Since I like 6x6 for MF, I need a P6 body to use this lens on.
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Sony α7R, Pentax 67II, Kiev-60, Hasselblad 203FE, 903SWC, Graflex Norita 66, Mamiya M645 1000s, Burke & James 8x10, Graflex Pacemaker Speed Graphic (4x5 and 3x4), Century Graphic (2x3), R.B. Graflex Seried D, Rolleiflex SL66E, Rolleiflex 2.8C Xenotar, Mamiya C330f, a few M42, six P6, three OM, four Hasselblad, two Pentax 67, two Mamiya 645, one Noritar, and a sprinkle of EF. Oh, and an Aero Ektar and Leica Noctilux |
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
Thanks guys! You have given me a lot of thought.
I must admit that I have owned a P6 in the past, but I wasn't particularly impressed with it. Yes, I also encountered the dreaded overlap problem  So I got rid of it quickly. Also, the viewfinder, with the prism installed, was rather bad. I believe only 5x5cm was visible on the screen when I used the prism! Not to mention the flimsy film wind lever).
So, for now the Pentax 645 (N/NII) are definitely on the top of my list, but the 6x7 still sounds nice because of its size (size matters, doesn't it? )
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Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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cilinderman
Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 317
Location: Canillo, Andorra
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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cilinderman wrote:
I was looking some time ago and Mamiya RB67 and Pentax 645 and 645n (not newest nII) can be bought for very realtively cheap. Almost all MF systems are full of quality  .
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5D & Fujica ST801|| Carl Zeiss Planar MM 50/1.7 (departed for resurrection) || Carl Zeiss Distagon 28/2.8 AEJ || Meyer Orestor "Pentacon" (relabeled) 135/2.8 || Carl Zeiss Jena 135/3.5 || Carl Zeiss Sonnar MM 85/2.8 || Carl Zeiss Flektogon MC "White" 35/2.4 || Olympus Zuiko OM MC 21/3.5 || Super Takumar 55/1.8 || Rollei Planar HFT 50/1.8 || "The three tenors" from Orio (Nikkor pre-AI 85/1.8, 135/3.5 & 105/2.5) |
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Xpres
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 964
Location: UK
Expire: 2014-10-28
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Xpres wrote:
What about a Mamiya 7? Relatively light and easy to carry... and some very good lenses available.
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Film... and sometimes SD14, 5D2 and some other suff! |
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Nesster
Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 5883
Location: NJ, USA
Expire: 2014-02-20
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Nesster wrote:
The M7 is made of kryptonite, with the prices they're getting
Bill makes a very persuasive argument for the Koni Omega, if RF is OK. The K-O is definitely not made of kryptonite
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
The Koni-Omega and Mamiya 7's defintely are nice cameras capable of outstanding results, but I really do not want a rangefinder camera for my MF work (at least not at this time; I already have a nice Zeiss Ikon Ikonta C 524/2 for that). So, it must be a SLR. Sorry guys...
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Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 57865
Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
| Spotmatic wrote: |
| The Koni-Omega and Mamiya 7's defintely are nice cameras capable of outstanding results, but I really do not want a rangefinder camera for my MF work (at least not at this time; I already have a nice Zeiss Ikon Ikonta C 524/2 for that). So, it must be a SLR. Sorry guys... |
BUT ! It has interchangeable lenses Koni Omega definetly a seriously good camera and it has all important focal lengths.
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Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
Yes, but it's also more rare (I haven't seen it often on the camera swap meets I visit).
Who knows, for a few euros I might do it. This sunday, I'm going to visit one of the larger outdoor Photographica fairs in Europe: the Doesburg fair. Who knows what I'll find there? Enough opportunities to find nice lenses too
(Ed. - Spottie - please don't post big pictures here, thanks)
_________________
Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 57865
Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
How lucky you are ! I am envy ...
_________________
-------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Nesster
Joined: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 5883
Location: NJ, USA
Expire: 2014-02-20
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Nesster wrote:
Damn fine fair, it's no fair
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
| Attila wrote: |
| How lucky you are ! I am envy ... |
Yes, we Dutch are gifted with nice fairs! Twice a year the well-known Houten fair (still the largest indoor fair worldwide I think) and once a year the Doesburg fair in August. (There's also the New Year's fair in Doesburg, but that's a VERY small one, not more than 25 tables; the August fair in Doesburg has 750 meters of tables full of photograpic treasures and trash).
_________________
Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 57865
Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
| Spotmatic wrote: |
| Attila wrote: |
| How lucky you are ! I am envy ... |
Yes, we Dutch are gifted with nice fairs! Twice a year the well-known Houten fair (still the largest indoor fair worldwide I think) and once a year the Doesburg fair in August. (There's also the New Year's fair in Doesburg, but that's a VERY small one, not more than 25 tables; the August fair in Doesburg has 750 meters of tables full of photograpic treasures and trash). |
_________________
-------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
| Attila wrote: |
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Believe me, you'll get used to it!
_________________
Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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Katastrofo
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 10405
Location: USA
Expire: 2013-11-19
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Katastrofo wrote:
That just isn't fair...
Aw crap, Nesster beat me to it. |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 57865
Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Oh one more why I did pickup P645 size ... small enough to carry to vacation.
_________________
-------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Katastrofo
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 10405
Location: USA
Expire: 2013-11-19
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Katastrofo wrote:
Attila, you have a pic of the P645? |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 57865
Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
I did make it but I didn't find it 
http://www.kenrockwell.com/pentax/645/645.htm
_________________
-------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Katastrofo
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 10405
Location: USA
Expire: 2013-11-19
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Katastrofo wrote:
Wow, what a cool looking compact camera for medium format! |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 57865
Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
| Katastrofo wrote: |
| Wow, what a cool looking compact camera for medium format! |
Yes indeed and think about Larry have it I definetly would like to take a Koni-Omega with genuine Konica lenses , but for travel and medium format SLR I can't find better compromise. I still love my 6x9 folders and I will use them on travel , but I did fallen in love into P645 + CZJ Flektogon too.
_________________
-------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 57865
Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Ah Andy selling a Pentax 6x7 set on good price..
_________________
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Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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