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Explore the world of vintage lenses through repair notes, real test shots, and detailed archive threads packed with images.

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Sony A7r, gamechanger, to be announced Wed
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:01 am
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:01 am
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i ask myself that all the time! actually, now that my dream FF is here (maybe, jury is still out) i'm worried that for the type of shooting i do i will really miss the extra DOF i get from crop cams! a mind is a terrible thing to waste!


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:34 am
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:34 am
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But an Industar can be used, with adapter, on many current DSLRs, yes? Unless it's some sort of super wide angle with the rear element only millimeters away from the focal plane? If not, I guess I don't get it either.

But what I do get is finally being able to use my collection of fine Canon FD and FL lenses on a full frame digital. It looks like it's gonna be a while, though.


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:56 am
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:56 am
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So do I . I am thinking about buying this camera to use my M42 lenses.
The question for me is if I need to go to the 7r to use my Takumars,Yashinon, Helios.
Are those lenses sharp enough for the 7r ?

About the Industar 3,5 50mm , you have to stop it down with smaller sensors ,so with FF....

If somebody has the answer to my first question, I could perhaps save some money.


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:48 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:48 pm
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well, i cant answer your question directly, but after seeing loads of new cams hit the market over the last ten years, and being a 'new' adopter a few times--each to my detriment--i personally am going to do a whole lot of reading and looking at images from both cameras before i make a decision. from what ive personally seen so far, i find the output of the 7 to have more of a 'pop' and better framewide clarity than the R, which, again only my opinion and based on what ive seen so far, seems flat and a little uninspiring, though with better center sharoness. believe me, i havent reached a conclusion yet and itll probably take me a month or so of more research to reach any final conclusion for me.
tony


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:06 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:06 pm
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Hello Tony.
Do you mean that micro 4/3 olympus disappointed you ?
If so, could you explain why ?

Personnaly, I like my Pen E-P2 a lot with its electronic viewfinder but uses it more for street photography.
I didn't get used to the doubling focal length for MF lenses.
I use the Pen essentially with the 14-42 or the Lumix 14mm f2.5.
But I like to be avle to try the RF lenses I got such as Jupiter-12, Fed-22, Fed-50 or Industar-61.

The Pen image quality is very good directly out of the body, which is stabilized, another great feature for MF.
I remember having made good shots with the miror lens Tamron SP 500 F8, so 1000mm on micro 4/3..., using a tripod.


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:24 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:24 pm
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hi olivier, how are you?

not sure what prompted your question about m4/3, but my comments were about the new sonys. if it was my 'early adopter' comment, ive done that a few times, most recently with the oly omd e5, which i did not like. i found the images from that camera very flat and dull. recently i got a fantastic deal on a white epl5 which has a 'tweaked' e5 sensor and i absolutely love the results. color and shatpness are almost too good, af instantaneous, framewide clarity with m4/3 lenses is stunning. i have the panny 28/2.5 and the oly 45/1.8 and i find the results pleasing in every way. i do not like the epl5 from a 'shooters' perspective. its not a 'thoughtful' camera and there are not ways to quickly get to essential functions like focus zoom (2-3 clicks), exposure comp (2 clicks). iso etc. however the ability to use the articulating screen to focus on any point and fire the shutter (which is way too loud) is great for street shooting.
tony


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:42 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:42 pm
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I'm fine Tony. Smile
What about you ?

What made me ask you is what you wrote in the previous post : being a 'new' adopter a few times--each to my detriment--
I was wondering wether it was about the M4/3. It seems to be with the EM5.


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:37 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:37 pm
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I have read some posts about the question of the EVF of the A7.
I have been using a Panasonic G3 for 18 months ans I am very happy with the quality of its viewfinder although it does not match the EVF of the recent G6 or this Sony A7.
Focusing is very easy with my manual legacy lenses even stopped down. It is easier than with a SLR.
You can also control and correct the exposure which I like very much.

I think that there are many prejudices against EVF. For legacy MF lenses they are clearly better.


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:04 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:04 pm
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memetph wrote:
So do I . I am thinking about buying this camera to use my M42 lenses.
The question for me is if I need to go to the 7r to use my Takumars,Yashinon, Helios.
Are those lenses sharp enough for the 7r ?


My personal experience with Pentax brand lenses is mostly with the K-mount ones. But Pentax has had a long tradition of building extremely sharp optics, so because of this I would say that yes, your Takumars will be sharp enough.

As for the Yashinons and Heilios lenses, I have a normal focal length of each. Yashinon 50mm f/1.7 and Helios 58mm f/2. The Yashinon is noticeably sharper than the Helios -- I would say it is equivalent to the best Takumars, in fact. The Helios is still very good, just not as sharp as the Yashinon.

I read a comment here in this thread yesterday where it was stated that NIkon D800 users have found that, when lenses of mediocre quality are used on the D800, their image quality improves. I don't see why this should surprise anyone. It makes sense to me. I certainly wouldn't expect a mediocre lens's image quality to decrease with the D800, or even stay the same. That sensor is pushing the lens to its ultimate capabilities, so it isn't a surprise that its image quality has improved. This is something one should probably keep in mind with the A7r as well, because I'll wager that the same thing occurs with it. So, bottom line is likely to be that, no matter which of your lenses you decide to use on an A7r, the image quality will have improved.

I can see how one would be interested or maybe concerned about the resolution capabilities of a lens when used with a camera like the A7r or D800. If the lens doesn't have the resolving power of the sensor, then maybe it isn't worth using? I just did a quick mathematical check of the reported resolution of the A7r and my figures match the reports, namely that the A7r has a max resolution of 102 lp/mm. This is sharper than the sharpest lens whose resolution was measured in any report I've seen. I really am still quite fond of the way the old Modern Photography magazine reported image sharpness. Those are the tests I remember. And I recall very few lenses tested whose sharpness was above 70 lp/mm. So we can conclude then that if an optic resolves 70 lp/mm, it is an extremely sharp optic. For example, the Tamron 90mm f/2.5 macro was tested by Modern Photography to have 69 lp/mm at its "sweet spot," namely f/8 and f/11. I have one of these lenses and it is most likely the sharpest lens I own. It is just amazingly sharp. But I'll bet that if I use it with an A7r or D800, its sharpness will look even better.

One might call the A7r and D800 overkill in that regard. I don't. And the reason why is it amounts to a challenge to lens makers to improve the quality of their glass so that it can resolve these sensors' images to their full capabilities.

Oh and let also not forget that there are indeed films out there that will benefit from higher resolution lenses. Film ain't dead yet -- not by a long shot.

But getting back to memetph's original question, my simple response is, "With an A7r, use every lens you've got, and have fun with them all." Because I'll bet that even your old uninspiring lenses might just surprise you.


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:01 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:01 pm
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Thank you Cooltouch for your long and clear answer.

I shall make my question more precise thanks to your informations.
The 7r resolves 102 lp/mm.
Let's assume that the 7 resolves 70 lp/mm
If my Takumars do not exceed 70lp/m , I understand that there will be no advantage buying the 7r,

Am I wrong?

Philippe


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:08 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:08 pm
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Weather was very dull today, but I took the camera out for a spin anyway. Some comments:

1. Battery life is appalling - 200 odd shots per charge (which takes hours)
2. I am really not getting on with the EVF in good light. lots of mis-focused shots and peaking doesn't seem to work at all well Sad
3. High ISO performance in RAW is not as good as the Canon EOS 6D, it's quite noisy at ISO 6400

But...

I've just read that by switching on airplane mode (wifi off), you can get over a thousand shots per charge Shocked Will try this next time round!

Just need to get used to this EVF now...

Last edited by ManualFocus-G on Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:54 pm; edited 2 times in total


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:30 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:30 pm
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memetph wrote:
Thank you Cooltouch for your long and clear answer.

I shall make my question more precise thanks to your informations.
The 7r resolves 102 lp/mm.
Let's assume that the 7 resolves 70 lp/mm
If my Takumars do not exceed 70lp/m , I understand that there will be no advantage buying the 7r,

Am I wrong?


I don't know, honestly.

Recall the comment about the D800 improving a lens's image quality. Also recall that the A7 has an anti-aliasing filter, which will decrease sharpness somewhat, whereas the A7r does not have this filter, so its sharpness is the maximum available from that sensor.

I look at these two cameras and think of car analogies.

The A7 is the equivalent of a high-performance car from the factory. Since I'm in the States, I'll use a very popular car here as an example: the Ford Mustang. So the A7 would be equivalent to, say the Ford Mustang GT with an optional engine package, like the 444hp 302ci V8. Because the A7 is already in a class beyond most other cameras it deserves being compared to a Mustang with an engine upgrade.

The A7r, by contrast, would be that same Ford Mustang GT, but one that has passed through the hands of a notable tuner, like Saleen, or Roush, or Shelby, for example. Suddenly the 444hp car with basically a street setup for its drivetrain, suspension and brakes, is transformed into a track scorcher with a 650 hp supercharged V8, with a drivetrain that can handle all that horsepower all day long, vastly improved and stiffened suspension, and massive brakes.

So, which do you prefer? The high performance 444hp Mustang (the A7) or the 650hp monster Saleen/Roush/Shelby track scorcher (the A7r)?


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:39 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:39 pm
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Laughing Laughing


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:56 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:56 pm
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go for the A7r Laughing


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:02 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:02 pm
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the hell with the a7r, i want that shelby mustang!


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:09 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:09 pm
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Finish your bottle before !!!


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:13 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:13 pm
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Buy me a Saleen or a McLaren, please.
Thank you. Smile


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:34 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:34 pm
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memetph wrote:
Thank you Cooltouch for your long and clear answer.

I shall make my question more precise thanks to your informations.
The 7r resolves 102 lp/mm.
Let's assume that the 7 resolves 70 lp/mm
If my Takumars do not exceed 70lp/m , I understand that there will be no advantage buying the 7r,

Am I wrong?

Philippe


Dr. H. H. Nasse of Zeiss, writing in the article How to read MTF Curves Part II ( http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_31_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_2_en.pdf ), talks about ...

... the misconception that only the resolution limit of the system (camera + lens) determines the image quality and that it is identical to the resolution of the weakest link of this chain. This is not the case, though, since the (MTF) curves are multiplied....


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:50 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:50 pm
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Thanks.
I'll try to read it.( I mean to understand it)


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:16 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:16 pm
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memetph wrote:
Thanks.
I'll try to read it.( I mean to understand it)


If what he says is true, and lots of people say the same thing, then the resolution of a system, made from a lens plus an A7R, is greater than the resolution of a system made from the same lens plus an A7. The resolution of the A7R is greater than that of the A7. In general, the more pixels the better. Whether or not the increase in resolution is worth it, when balanced against other factors, such as noise, cost, file size, etc., is another matter.


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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:18 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:18 pm
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Sony a7 with Prakticar Pentacon 50/2.4. This lens is great in the middle, not so at the sides Confused



Sony a7 with Contax Carl Zeiss Sonnar 85/2.8 T*





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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:32 am
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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:32 am
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Samyang 85/1.4 wide open, A7 - ISO6400, 1/30s, handheld
RAW conversion in LR5.3RC, slight sharpening (+30) and very slight noise reduction (+10)



*second pic deleted*

Last edited by ForenSeil on Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total


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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:47 am
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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:47 am
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ForenSeil wrote:
Samyang 85/1.4 wide open, A7 - ISO6400, 1/30s, handheld
RAW conversion in LR5.3RC, slight sharpening (+30) and very slight noise reduction (+10)



That is one of the cutest woofers I've ever seen! Stunning shot from an excellent Samyang lens Cool

That Leica doesn't look too shabby either Wink


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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:52 am
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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:52 am
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Beautiful dog portrait!


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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:28 am
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Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:28 am
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Hi Attila ,
I saw your A7r with legacy lenses on an other post.
How is the focusing with the Sony and those lenses.
Can you activate easily the focus picking?

Thanks

What about the performance?
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