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Sony A7r, gamechanger, to be announced Wed
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Home Digital Rangefinder / Viewfinder Cameras  Sony-NEX
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell wrote:
that photoblogger analysis is the very first ive read that is actually meaningful, and it took a bite out of my enthusiasm. though i still wait for both final version and more complete testing. im hoping the fdbk sony get from this little Tennessee outing can still effect the final product...


hm..he may have a point or two, but that phoblographer's blog's assessment and wording, quotes:
"Sony’s NEX camera system has always been able to boast blazing fast autofocusing speed" and: "However, nailing that image is tougher because the sensor amplifies the slightest issue (such as camera shake) and any other problem by ten fold" makes me doubt his authority.

These people 'must' come forward with fast judgements and to me it seems that rather criticizing than praising this camera that ventures into new territories is playing it safe. Personally I would not dare any serious asessment after heavy use of various months, these people have much more experience, but doing some shots for a day of two imo just doesn't cut it for any real valuable assessment.

Though I agree that focus peaking implementation on NEX has room for improvement, but if it is not worse as on NEX models than still I would say that his criticism most of all stems from little practice / experience using it.

Last edited by kuuan on Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
good to get a users pov. i havent any sony gear. thanks!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tony sorry, I edited while you answered, i hope that the meaning hadn't changed all that much


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
rbelyell wrote:
that photoblogger analysis is the very first ive read that is actually meaningful, and it took a bite out of my enthusiasm. though i still wait for both final version and more complete testing. im hoping the fdbk sony get from this little Tennessee outing can still effect the final product...


hm..he may have a point or two, but that phoblographer's blog's assessment and wording, quotes:
"Sony’s NEX camera system has always been able to boast blazing fast autofocusing speed" and: "However, nailing that image is tougher because the sensor amplifies the slightest issue (such as camera shake) and any other problem by ten fold" makes me doubt his authority.

These people 'must' come forward with fast judgements and to me it seems that rather criticizing than praising this camera that ventures into new territories is playing it safe. Personally I would not dare any serious asessment after heavy use of various months, these people have much more experience, but doing some shots for a day of two imo just doesn't cut it for any real valuable assessment.

Though I agree that focus peaking implementation on NEX has room for improvement, but if it is not worse as on NEX models than still I would say that his criticism most of all stems from little practice / experience using it.


Geeez Andreas, what true words within all that hype. A thorough test does need some time, especially the (good) photographer that you are. All that talk upfront is not worth more that the hot air exhaled Wink Time will tell when some photographer I trust have formed an opinion based on real photographers work and not on "armchair quarterbacks , err photographers talk" ... Wink


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:

Geeez Andreas, what true words within all that hype. A thorough test does need some time, especially the (good) photographer that you are. All that talk upfront is not worth more that the hot air exhaled Wink Time will tell when some photographer I trust have formed an opinion based on real photographers work and not on "armchair quarterbacks , err photographers talk" ... Wink


thank you Klaus, haha, sure you are right.
On the other hand, as I have written here and there, I am really excited about this new cameras! IMO they deserve emphasis on what they offer first, and not on where they possibly miss. Hey, these are the first FF mirrorless ( I don't have the kind of funds to count the M9..) so much smaller and lighter than any prior FF digital camera, they take almost any lens with cheap adapters NEX users already own, they are cheap and offer the known, from NEX, good aids for manual focus.
How could I not be really excited? It's a beginning, after a while their limitations will become clear, and I am sure soon we will have new models that will try to address those too.

Of course I am very curious about first user, bloggers asf. reports, they all tell us something, and the more reports we get the better idea we get too. But they are also 'fast impressions' and better be taken with caution.
Exciting times..to wait and see Wink


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nordentro wrote:
Hmm, this makes me want to change my order to A7. So what was all that talk about off-set on the A7R's sensor for optimized quality for RF lenses ++?!? Bull shit? Surprised

But Sony never claimed that officially, did they ? Twisted Evil

At this point, we need more confirmation.

My Personnal Tax Advisor stongly advised me to keep that 600 bucks...
If the A7r is not an indisputable winner, this is perfectly OK for me.

Wait & See.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The DxOMark results are available. The A7R is very close to the D800.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
kuuan wrote:
rbelyell wrote:
that photoblogger analysis is the very first ive read that is actually meaningful, and it took a bite out of my enthusiasm. though i still wait for both final version and more complete testing. im hoping the fdbk sony get from this little Tennessee outing can still effect the final product...


hm..he may have a point or two, but that phoblographer's blog's assessment and wording, quotes:
"Sony’s NEX camera system has always been able to boast blazing fast autofocusing speed" and: "However, nailing that image is tougher because the sensor amplifies the slightest issue (such as camera shake) and any other problem by ten fold" makes me doubt his authority.

These people 'must' come forward with fast judgements and to me it seems that rather criticizing than praising this camera that ventures into new territories is playing it safe. Personally I would not dare any serious asessment after heavy use of various months, these people have much more experience, but doing some shots for a day of two imo just doesn't cut it for any real valuable assessment.

Though I agree that focus peaking implementation on NEX has room for improvement, but if it is not worse as on NEX models than still I would say that his criticism most of all stems from little practice / experience using it.


Geeez Andreas, what true words within all that hype. A thorough test does need some time, especially the (good) photographer that you are. All that talk upfront is not worth more that the hot air exhaled Wink Time will tell when some photographer I trust have formed an opinion based on real photographers work and not on "armchair quarterbacks , err photographers talk" ... Wink


Careful Klaus, advising restraint until the camera has proven itself in the hands of skilled people can get you trolled Wink

But you are perfectly correct. Smile


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Phenix jc wrote:
But Sony never claimed that officially, did they ? Twisted Evil
Wait & See.


Sony Autralia annonced the first day that the sensor had a special off-set on the senor in the corners to deal with short regisert distance lenses on the A7R Confused


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Steve Huff confirmation :

"The A7 will give you slightly better performance with ultra wides though none will give you clean files with the 15mm Voigtlander. No full frame camera in digital can. The A7 with all of the lenses besides the 15 look pretty damn good though"

"Many have been asking me…”Which one do I get”?

To answer that ask yourself if you want powerhouse resolution or huge resolution. Either one delivers plenty of detail and resolution but the A7r takes it up a notch. For Leica users who want to use M glass, I recommend the A7 if you want to shoot with some wide angles (some work fine) and the A7r if you are 35mm and up. It’s that simple. Both excel at low light and high ISO, both feel the same and work the same."

Well...Whatever might be the future tests I now doubt that the 7r may be an indisputable winner.
I don't need 36 MP for my photos, my computer chain doesn't need 36MP+Raw either.
Within 1 year or 2, a better sensor will be released.
A7 for me.
Merry Christmas !


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
"hands on impressions" of a NEX7 user: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3569058


PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
DxoMark: Sony A7R vs Nikon D800 vs Nikon D800E: Same Scores, Same Sensor?
http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Sony-Alpha-7R-review-Highest-ever-full-frame-image-quality/Sony-A7R-versus-competition


PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Phenix jc wrote:
Steve Huff confirmation :

"The A7 will give you slightly better performance with ultra wides though none will give you clean files with the 15mm Voigtlander. No full frame camera in digital can. The A7 with all of the lenses besides the 15 look pretty damn good though"

"Many have been asking me…”Which one do I get”?

To answer that ask yourself if you want powerhouse resolution or huge resolution. Either one delivers plenty of detail and resolution but the A7r takes it up a notch. For Leica users who want to use M glass, I recommend the A7 if you want to shoot with some wide angles (some work fine) and the A7r if you are 35mm and up. It’s that simple. Both excel at low light and high ISO, both feel the same and work the same."

Well...Whatever might be the future tests I now doubt that the 7r may be an indisputable winner.
I don't need 36 MP for my photos, my computer chain doesn't need 36MP+Raw either.
Within 1 year or 2, a better sensor will be released.
A7 for me.
Merry Christmas !


Well, after thinking, I will still stick to my A7R order, they may fix some of these issues in later firmware, or some can be removed in post process. It is after all only on extreme wide angels, and my guess is that Zeiss or Sony will launch a better wide angle for this camera later. Maybe you even can turn down the resolution in camera to make it slightly better. And you can use other wide angles than RF. I almost bought the 15mm Voigtlander a few days ago, but I am not buying that lens after this.

I am more of a 50mm and up guy anyway Wink

Last edited by Nordentro on Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:12 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
DxoMark: Sony A7R vs Nikon D800 vs Nikon D800E: Same Scores, Same Sensor?
http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Sony-Alpha-7R-review-Highest-ever-full-frame-image-quality/Sony-A7R-versus-competition


Yes, why not use the D800 Sensor in their own cameras. D800 takes excellent pictures Wink


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's interesting that Steve Huff also said that the A7 is better than the A7r when used with wide-angle M lenses.
Quote:

The A7 will give you slightly better performance with ultra wides though none will give you clean files with the 15mm Voigtlander. No full frame camera in digital can. The A7 with all of the lenses besides the 15 look pretty *** good though.
...
Either one delivers plenty of detail and resolution but the A7r takes it up a notch. For Leica users who want to use M glass, I recommend the A7 if you want to shoot with some wide angles (some work fine) and the A7r if you are 35mm and up.

He also posted some results with M wides.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's funny -- prior to the announcements of this pair of game-changing cameras, I was logging into sonyalphrumors.com on a daily basis to see what was new. And then a few weeks ago I get busy on something else and end up tuning out on all things photographic. At last, today I finally get a chance to do some catch-up. Well, it was quite interesting reading on the new Alpha 7s and the photos make them look very inviting to use, too, don't they. I mean, they even look positively retro, don't they? Those big angular viewfinders even harken back to an earlier era of the removable ones seen on the Canon F-1 and Nikon's F-series.

Prices were exactly where I had anticipated them to be, even for the A7 with kit 28-70 kit lens. I wish to hell they would have seen fit to make it a 24-70 instead, though. That way, at least one end of the focal range would have been interesting. A 28-70 is a real yawner at both ends.

I've been saving for a NEX for a while now, and had almost decided on getting a NEX 7 -- or the update of the 7 that's supposed to be announced soon. Looks like it's been pushed back to next year, though. But given the prices of the A7, it sure has become tempting. But with the 28-70 lens added in, there's only a couple hundred bucks separating it from the A7r and its whopping 36 mp. But no AA filter, which might be nice to have at times. Decisions, decisions.

One thing's for certain -- this long-time Canon user sees no EOS in his future for the foreseeable future.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Michael -

I share you opinion in all aspects.

cooltouch wrote:

One thing's for certain -- this long-time Canon user sees no EOS in his future for the foreseeable future.


tf


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
trifox wrote:
Hi Michael -

I share you opinion in all aspects.

cooltouch wrote:

One thing's for certain -- this long-time Canon user sees no EOS in his future for the foreseeable future.


tf


certainly not everyone will agree and some simply may have problem that it is "Sony", but imo it has been Sony that has been pushing the correct visions and as icing on the cake is the biggest, arguably best producer of sensors. These cameras are the latest culmination.
Even though market of dSLR still is much bigger I am certain that in not so distant future this will be reversed, and therefore I am actually very surprised that the market of mirrorless APS-C cameras is not yet more crowded and that A7/r are the first FF ( excuse me for not counting the M9 )
Canon M was very half backed, specially Canon is missing out here.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:

One thing's for certain -- this long-time Canon user sees no EOS in his future for the foreseeable future.

+1

Canon have shot themselves in the foot.
I will stick with my 5DMkII.
I am even contemplating selling a couple of EF lenses to finance an a7r.

By the way Michael, stay away from the kit and get the amazing VarioSonnar 35-70 Contax, for about $450.
Then you will just need to add a wide. Perhaps one of the 21mm Biogons (these are expensive, but perfect).


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How have Canon shot themselves in the foot? They produce some of the best cameras and lenses in the world and have huge market share! Just cos us geeks can't use 1970s lenses on their dslrs doesn't mean they've done anything wrong Laughing


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
No certainly not. I was merely pointing out that -- for me personally -- there will be no EOS in my future. I have been waiting for years now for a decent camera that I can mount all my MF lenses to. Not just some of them. My largest collection is Canon FD with a couple of FLs. And I love my Canon FDs. It is for this reason mostly that my next interchangeable lens camera will be a Sony. Hopefully I'll be able to arrange financing for one of the A7 models.

I see that Metabones has finally released a Speed Booster for Canon FD lenses on the NEX cameras. Only $400. Add that price to a new NEX 7 and the difference between it and a A7 is just too small not to go with the FF. I can get a cheap Sony E to Canon FD adapter off eBay and I will be set.

Hey Nikos, thanks for the tip on the VarioSonnar. As for super wides, I have an FD 24mm f/2.8 SSC and a Tokina built Vivitar 17mm f/3.5 in FD mount. If I choose to add to these focal lengths, it would actually be a Nikkor. I know there are more modern Nikkors that are supposedly better, but I happen to like the old Pre-AI 20mm f/3.5 UD. That will fill the gap nicely between 24mm and 17mm.

Last edited by cooltouch on Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The ai 20/4 is very nice on ft too Smile You're absolutely right, why buy aps-c and a speedbooster when you can get the real thing Wink


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Canon do have a huge market share, but how much of that is low-end stuff of dubious quality? The main reason why I moved away from EOS is the very poor build quality, the 18-55 kit lens and the 1.8/50 are best thought of as semi-disposable items that won't last more than a year or so of frequent use. The consumer EOS cameras are poor for use with manual lenses due to the small, dark viewfinders with crappy focus screens. If Canon would produce lenses with good build quality and cameras with good reflex systems then they would be more attractive to me, because the pricing is good, but as it stands right now, Canon are not one of the brands I'm considering for my next camera. I plan to upgrade my NEX-3 in spring and I still have no idea what to buy, but it won't be an EOS because a 50mm lens is what I use most of the time and the Canon one is junk and using a manual one with a consumer EOS is a frustrating experience due to the very poor reflex system.

That said, I honestly don't know if the kit lenses and 50mm lenses from Sony and Nikon are any better built, they may not be.

I'm leaning towards a Sony because I can use the excellent and very well built Minolta AF lenses, build quality, robustness and longevity is important to me and my Minolta AF 1.7/50 is still working perfectly after 20 years of use and it was a few years old when I bought it secondhand in 1993. I honestly have very strong doubts that any of the current 50s would last half as long.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
How have Canon shot themselves in the foot? They produce some of the best cameras and lenses in the world and have huge market share! Just cos us geeks can't use 1970s lenses on their dslrs doesn't mean they've done anything wrong Laughing

Let me explain.
In 2007, they were about 5 years ahead of the competition.
Nobody else had a FF sensor then, and Canon had it since 2001.
Nikon-ians used to say that FF is bad because you need good glass Laughing
Now Nikon users rave about D800.
Isn't it so?

Do not tell me you were impressed with the Canon mirrorless or the the 5D Mark III.
Why do you think they released 6D a few months after 5D III?

Note that I am a Canon user since 1997, and I do not like Sony (nor any other company which opens backdoors in my computer).
But Sony pushes things ahead now, while Canon tries to capitalize on their RnD of the previous decade.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, Kodak were selling FF cameras in the form of the DCS Pro 14n and succeeding models from May 2003 so they were only a few months behind Canon in entering the FF stakes (the EOS 1Ds appeared in September 2002) and the IQ of the Kodaks (at low ISO at least) wasn't surpassed for several years, in fact, the Kodak produced better output at low ISO than the EOS 5D and D700 which appeared in 2005 and 2008 respectively.
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