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simple.joy
Joined: 30 May 2022
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 Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:09 pm Post subject: 3D stereo experiments with adapted MF lenses |
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simple.joy wrote:
Because there have been a couple of stereo images posted here during the last couple of days and I have experimented with it myself with various lenses during the last couple of months, I thought it might be a good idea to create a dedicated thread (if there already is one, I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to find anything close to it via the search-option) to collect many of them for those who are interested.
I know that not everybody is able to reproduce the effect, but from my own experience it can take a couple of attempts before you get your eyes used to it. I've started with parallel view, but switched over to cross-eye stereo viewing, because it allows for images to be displayed significantly bigger and still see the effect. But as far as I'm concerned don't hesitate to show any other methods here. If you introduce some new technique or something that requires additional information to function properly, it would be great if you could add a description though.
Because Klaus has already posted a good number of wonderful images with 3D cross eyed view, I'll quote his description of the technique here:
| kds315* wrote: |
Just in case you have not yet tried to do 3D stereo, here a little "how to":
1) look at the image, center on the middle gap between them (with your glasses on that you need for reading this sharp = in focus)
2) place the pointer finger at your nose tip without changing your viewing
3) now still looking straigt to the image, try to focus on your finger
4) move the finger towards the gap between the images
5) follow the finger while keeping focused on it
6) at a certain moment an image "between the images" will appear (looking three dimensional); your finger will be approx. 20cm = 8 inches away from your nose (depending on viewing distance from screen)
7) move your concentration towards that "image between the images" and leave it there (and remove your finger then without changing your viewing position...)
 that's it... |
| blotafton wrote: |
I made this picture many years ago to explain to my friends 
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Here are some more infos and samples:
https://triaxes.com/docs/3DTheory-en/522ParallelCrosseyedviewingmetho.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrossView/comments/10s5i18/welcome_to_rcrossview_new_users_read_this/
Here's a tutorial on parallel viewing:
https://stereosite.com/basic-tutorials/how-to-free-view-stereoscopic-pairs/
and some more samples to test if you managed to make it work:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ParallelView/
Most of the 3D images you'll find online show lots of DOF, because it allows for your eyes to "jump around" within the layers of the image. That's great and may be the most common and accepted way on how to do these images. However I'm sure many of us MF lens experimenters here also have an interest in showing the particular rendering and look of certain lenses, which can sometimes be shown more effectively by keeping the DOF relatively shallow. Bosun Higgs on the dpreview forum (whom many here may be familiar with) has created lots of very impressive examples of that kind of stereo image. It's absolutely worth it to check it out, once you're able to view these: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64901919
I'm also going to follow this path for the most part, but please share any kind of 3D experiments you've done. It's always fun to try and it might add another interesting aspects to some of your lenses as well. That's why I would encourage everyone to mention the lens used, if possible.
Okay, here are two sample images to start off this thread:
CROSS-EYE VIEW
 Small scale big drop by simple.joy, on Flickr
(Leitz Summar 12 cm f/4.5)
PARALLEL VIEW
 Grape minds think alike by simple.joy, on Flickr
(Meopta Meostigmat 70 mm f/1.4)
Hope it works. Have fun!
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Last edited by simple.joy on Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jamaeolus
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| Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
What is the taking technique?
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simple.joy
Joined: 30 May 2022
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:51 am Post subject: |
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simple.joy wrote:
| jamaeolus wrote: |
| What is the taking technique? |
It's pretty basic. You just take two shots of the same scene but move your camera to the side slightly (roughly as far as the distance between your eyes, but you can use more, depending on the distance of the subject... it's likely though that less people will be able to replicate the effect). There are also devices (prisma, double camera or rails with fixed distances etc.) which can help you get better results and there seems to be some software solution for aligning the images properly (I don't know because I try to do that myself in order to get a better understanding of the whole technique and what's behind it), which works pretty well from what I've heard.
Two more (cross view):
(Fuji P-Fujinon 2 1/2 inch f/1.7)
(Tamron Noritsu 48.5 mm f/2.8 )
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blotafton
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:19 am Post subject: |
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blotafton wrote:
Great idea! And nice shots!
I love making and looking at stereo shots, crosseyed method.
When taking them I also use a single camera and shift it. Called cha-cha for whatever reason.
On the net I've seen photos displayed cross-eyes and parallel at the same time by placing 3 photos together instead of 2.
To make the process easier I use a free software called StereoPhoto maker. It can auto align, rotate and crop two shots in a single action. When shooting hand held it is more or less necessary unless you are very steady because any rotation or up and down movement will hurt your eyes when looking at the shot. 
Here is one with the Trioplan 50mm 2.9.
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blotafton
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:38 am Post subject: |
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blotafton wrote:
There are pros and cons to using a stereo attachment like this.
Photo taken from: https://www.everand.com/article/472874227/Contaflex-Ii-Steritar
Pros:
Perfect alignment and capable of freezing motion.
Cons:
The short parallax makes the 3d effect weak for anything other than close shots.
Still the best dedicated digital 3d camera:
Photo: Dpreview
But there are also a couple made for film. |
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e6filmuser
Joined: 12 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
| simple.joy wrote: |
| jamaeolus wrote: |
| What is the taking technique? |
It's pretty basic. You just take two shots of the same scene but move your camera to the side slightly (roughly as far as the distance between your eyes, but you can use more, depending on the distance of the subject. |
I use a modification of that approach. To get the best effect you do something that no twin-lens stereo camera can do. You replicate how your eyes work. The simplest case is take your first image, noting which part of the subject is in the centre. Then move the required distance sideways and, keeping the same distance/focus, take a second image with the same part of the subject central. Once you have mastered that, you can do the same but with a significant feature which is off-centre but keeping it in the same position in the frame for the second image.
Also, when moving sideways for the second shot, you may find that you rotate the camera around the axis of the lens.Try to keep it level.
If using flash e.g. for macro, the flash units ideally should not move with the camera or you may get double shadows in the combined images as a stereo pair.
My default aperture for stereos is f11 (f22 FF). I don't know what would be achieved by shooting stereos at wide aperture as it minimises the effect of depth from the stereo effect. I suggest that full aperture test results would be better posted elsewhere.
I find it useful to always shoot left first then right, keeping me organised and not omitting any.
On a personal note, my various posts about using various lenses already mostly/all have crosseye (and maybe the occasional side by side) examples of images.
For making stereo pairs from my images I use StereoPhotoMaker, free to download, https://stereo.jpn.org/eng/stphmkr/
Having converted my RAW images to same size TIFFs, I them load pairs (left and right)of the up, get them to View/Fit Window and them use Adjust/Auto alignment and save as TIFFs, ensuring that the first one of a session goes to the correct file.
I then process the linked pair in the normal way, saving JPEGs at 1200 pixels wide.
When it comes to viewing crosseye pairs, it took me weeks to master it. I was shooting pairs but had to be told if they worked!
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Last edited by e6filmuser on Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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simple.joy
Joined: 30 May 2022
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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simple.joy wrote:
| e6filmuser wrote: |
My default aperture for stereos is f11 (f22 FF). I don't know what would be achieved by shooting stereos at wide aperture as it minimises the effect of depth from the stereo effect. I suggest that full aperture test results would be better posted elsewhere.
|
We will have to disagree there, I guess... I find the effect with wide open aperture still very much worth it and contrary to stopped-down stereo pairs it still shows the specific rendering of the lens in question, which certainly seems to be one of the main features we choose our MF lenses for. Did you have a look at the thread by Bosun Higgs on dpreview I've linked to in the OP? I know that not all people appreciate these bokeh-heavy shots in the same way (and the perception of 3D seems to vary from person to person) but I've heard from multiple people that it encouraged them to try the technique for the first time, even though they have probably been aware of 3D stereo for ages. So I certainly think that it's worth it, and feel like it got a place here as much as stopped down shots, where the added fun of being able to explore the depth of the image provides a whole different experience.
| e6filmuser wrote: |
I use a modification of that approach. To get the best effect you do something that no twin-lens stereo camera can do. You replicate how your eyes work. The simplest case is take your first image, noting which part of the subject is in the centre. Then move the required distance sideways and, keeping the same distance/focus, take a second image with the same part of the subject central. Once you have mastered that, you can do the same but with a significant feature which is off-centre but keeping it in the same position in the frame for the second image.
Also, when moving sideways for the second shot, you may find that you rotate the camera around the axis of the lens.Try to keep it level.
If using flash e.g. for macro, the flash units ideally should not move with the camera or you may get double shadows in the combined images as a stereo pair.
I find it useful to always shoot left first them right, keeping me organised and not omitting any.
On a personal note, my various posts about using various lenses already mostly/all have crosseye (and maybe the occasional side by side) examples of images.
For making stereo pairs from my images I use StereoPhotoMaker, free to download, https://stereo.jpn.org/eng/stphmkr/
Having converted my RAW images to same size TIFFs, I them load pairs (left and right)of the up, get them to View/Fit Window and them use Adjust/Auto alignment and save as TIFFs, ensuring that the first one of a session goes to the correct file.
I then process the linked pair in the normal way, saving JPEGs at 1200 pixels wide.
When it comes to viewing crosseye pairs, it took me weeks to master it. I was shooting pairs but had to be told if they worked! |
Thanks a lot for the additional information and advice - that's very helpful! 👍
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simple.joy
Joined: 30 May 2022
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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simple.joy wrote:
| blotafton wrote: |
There are pros and cons to using a stereo attachment like this.
Photo taken from: https://www.everand.com/article/472874227/Contaflex-Ii-Steritar
Pros:
Perfect alignment and capable of freezing motion.
Cons:
The short parallax makes the 3d effect weak for anything other than close shots.
Still the best dedicated digital 3d camera:
Photo: Dpreview
But there are also a couple made for film. |
Wow - thanks a lot! That's some great information and very fascinating devices. I'm happy to hear you like experimenting with stereo as well and really enjoyed the shots you posted with the Radionar/Trioplan. I don't think I've really tested any of my triplet lenses for 3D yet and certainly non of the lenses with really interesting bokeh shapes... may be worth a try.
I'm also looking forward to try some of the lenses which still keep a really smooth look when stopped down a bit - I've not yet tested how that actually looks in 3D, but I got a couple of ones in mind already...
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e6filmuser
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blotafton
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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blotafton wrote:
| simple.joy wrote: |
Wow - thanks a lot! That's some great information and very fascinating devices. I'm happy to hear you like experimenting with stereo as well and really enjoyed the shots you posted with the Radionar/Trioplan. I don't think I've really tested any of my triplet lenses for 3D yet and certainly non of the lenses with really interesting bokeh shapes... may be worth a try.
I'm also looking forward to try some of the lenses which still keep a really smooth look when stopped down a bit - I've not yet tested how that actually looks in 3D, but I got a couple of ones in mind already... |
I'm looking forward to seeing the shots!
I haven't given it much thoughts but I think triplets work well with the smaller displaying sizes that doesn't show the often weak edge performance.
When it comes to short DOF in stereo I also think it can work and I've seen Bosun Higgs, he's a legend!
Domiplan 50mm f2.8 wide open.
Last edited by blotafton on Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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simple.joy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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simple.joy wrote:
Great shots - particularly those in the Minolta thread and the Laowa 25 mm one - love those tiny moss worlds in 3D! 👍
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e6filmuser
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
| simple.joy wrote: |
Great shots - particularly those in the Minolta thread and the Laowa 25 mm one - love those tiny moss worlds in 3D! 👍 |
Thanks. I forgot to include this one (field of view 12mm wide) from the current Schneider 100mm string:
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alex_d
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
finaly a real 3D PoP !
any idea for a 'summary' as a option to the wall of text ?
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blotafton
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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blotafton wrote:
| alex_d wrote: |
finaly a real 3D PoP !
any idea for a 'summary' as a option to the wall of text ? |
I made this picture many years ago to explain to my friends
#1
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alex_d
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
ok thanx, thats explains better than 1000 words (not that i would read them..)
I thought that i knew that and yes, it's familiar stuff,
but I know it by a different name,
as some kind of effect if i remember good.
i could have had a зенит camera too
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Lloydy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Lloydy wrote:
I can't go crosseyed, never ever managed it. And the 3D movies with glasses make me want to throw up and give me violent headaches. Which is a shame, I'd really like to experience it.
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simple.joy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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simple.joy wrote:
Here are two images with very different lenses... 😅
(Vario Rodagon 44-52 mm f/4)
(Meopta Meostigmat 70 mm f/1.4)
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jamaeolus
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:39 am Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
I was taught the cross-eyed viewing technique in organic chemistry (1978!). The prof told us we could buy the special glasses to look at stereo images of certain molecular structures in the textbook or just look at them cross-eyed.
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e6filmuser
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:41 am Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
| Lloydy wrote: |
| I can't go crosseyed, never ever managed it. And the 3D movies with glasses make me want to throw up and give me violent headaches. Which is a shame, I'd really like to experience it. |
You may be trying too hard. Your focus should initially be through the image, into the middle distance.
Of course, anaglyphs are an alternative but the viewer needs the cinema type glasses with "lenses" of two different colours. I can make these with the same software but this gives a red bias to the images so I prefer not to.
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visualopsins
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:28 am Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Stereograms anybody?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereogram
Stereogram Tutorial
https://www.ime.usp.br/~otuyama/stereogram/basic/index.html
I can see them sometimes...
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stereogram&t=fpas&iax=images&ia=images
Edit: now I remember the viewing technique -- focus on finger held up between eyes and image. Image in peripheral vision will be seen with crossed eyes as long as focus is at finger distance...
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e6filmuser
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 7:31 am Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
| visualopsins wrote: |
Stereograms anybody?
Edit: now I remember the viewing technique -- focus on finger held up between eyes and image. Image in peripheral vision will be seen with crossed eyes as long as focus is at finger distance... |
The finger must start in contact with the nose and move out towards the vertical shared border between the two images. I wouldn't attempt to try to explain that for your image!
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e6filmuser
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:42 am Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
Corynabutilon vitifolia (leaning quite a bit!) A7r3 with Minolta 24mm f11 crosseye and conventional.
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blotafton
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:12 am Post subject: |
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blotafton wrote:
It can be hard to learn the crossed eye method because since birth we only cross our eyes to look at something very close. But we need to uncouple the focusing and relax our eyes to focus further out while having them crossed. |
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e6filmuser
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:15 am Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
| blotafton wrote: |
| It can be hard to learn the crossed eye method because since birth we only cross our eyes to look at something very close. But we need to uncouple the focusing and relax our eyes to focus further out while having them crossed. |
Just to clarify, each eye would look more towards the nose but never beyond it.
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blotafton
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:22 am Post subject: |
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blotafton wrote:
Domiplan in the forest.
#1
#2
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