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Using a 38mm Biogon / Lamegon design lens
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Using a 38mm Biogon / Lamegon design lens Reply with quote
I was digging through lenses when I came across a 38mm lens that obviously is a Biogon design. To my surprise I had the parts laying around to mount it on my Lumix, even allowing for infinity, so a few quick snapshots here:







I know about the famous Zeiss Biogon 38mm made for NASA once and the later available SWC camera, so could that be its little brother? Read Marco Cavina's article about it here: http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Zeiss_Biogon_38mm_4,5/00_pag.htm

I found the quickly done handheld shots pretty amazing for its clarity, contrast, sharpness and lack of distortion, so will do more research about that lens.

Last edited by kds315* on Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Really amazing, first class IQ ! (for what can be said at this image size)


PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, even the original file is stunning. I hope to shoot a few more test images tomorrow. Found a document that reports that this lens resolves > 100lpm, no wonder!


PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't make me plush Omar!! Embarassed Embarassed

Yes, I have a few lenses here, years of testing and collecting (and using) left their footprints (err full boxes)
so since I try to find certain optical solutions from time to time, it is helpful to have all that here and sometimes
one gets nice surprises, like the Hypergon and now that Biogon.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That should be about the lens design:



[corrected after having got more info about it - the useful angle has been restricted,
so although it its a wide angle lens design, for microreproduction only the sharp center is used]

Last edited by kds315* on Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:16 am; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
So, a few more shots this time during lunch break at a gray and dull day, but using a tripod.



















I'm quite amazed I have to say, esp. looking at the full details (1:1 crop, bit noisy due to the ISO640 used):







PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The results look very good.
Picture of the lens?

Klaus


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Does the good Dr Schmitt have a large team of people scouring the world for these fine lenses, or do they automatically find him? Shocked


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
exaklaus wrote:
The results look very good.
Picture of the lens?

Klaus


Later, I need to buy all available ones first Wink Wink


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
GrahamNR17 wrote:
Does the good Dr Schmitt have a large team of people scouring the world for these fine lenses, or do they automatically find him? Shocked


Sometimes I find them and sometimes they find me, but mainly it is patience and persistence which leads to that Wink


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another Shocked ...


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
another what? Rare lens? Not really, had it since long (and a few sisters of it).


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So it's not rare and there are a few relatives...

Tell us what it is then so we can share in the fun.

Can you shoot some comparison shots with another lens of similar focal length such as a Hexanon 1.8/40 or a nice 35mm so we can see the differences?


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
No
No
NO
Wink Wink

Sorry, it doesn't work like that Wink


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't approve of that attitude at all to be honest, there is no greater deed than the gift of knowledge.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why did I expect such kind of answer. That attitude "I have the right to...", happens way to often.... neglecting and disrespecting the efforts someone had to make to present some findings here. Be happy and be patient, it may eventually come, solely at my discretion, like it or not. Or do your own "lens research", nobody stops you...talking about "attitude".


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ian, there is no secret.
Klaus let you know enough for you to use a little initiative and find out by yourself:
Google: Biogon 4.5/38 (surprising initiative, eh? Wink )
You'll find a plentiful examples of Hasselblad lenses all derived from the famous Bertele lens designed in the 50s.
You will also find links to articles by Marco Cavina that explain both the long road from the Goerz Hypergon to Bertele's 4.5/38 Biogon:
http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Hypergon_Topogon_Biogon_Hologon/00_pag.htm
and the story of the Hasselblad 4.5/38 Biogon itself:
http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Zeiss_Biogon_38mm_4,5/00_pag.htm
Note that Klaus did not tell me a single word about any of that. The above are all information that I found by myself simply googling "Biogon 4.5/38"
Now I have no idea if the lens Klaus is handling is one of the Hasselblad versions, or if it's a prototype, or some unknown derivative,
but it makes little difference.
It's true that the gift of knowledge is noble, but people should also practice in finding the information themselves,
when they are openly available like in this case with a simple web query.
Otherwise if there is no effort there is no improvement and no merit, and it's better to earn some information with a little personal effort
than always getting the dinner ready cooked and served by somebody else. Wink


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I have already googled Biogon and read about it's application on Hasselblads, but I'm still none the wiser. I am the last person to fail to do my own research, I spend an inordinate amount of time doing research and am always happy to share any info I find, to be reticent to share just doesn't make sense to me at all. For me, ignorance is the root of all evil and to educate and communicate info is key to fostering greater understanding and mutual respect in our modern multi-cultural world. Not trying to start an argument, just a little baffled by the 'it's a secret' approach.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Well, I have already googled Biogon and read about it's application on Hasselblads, but I'm still none the wiser. I am the last person to fail to do my own research, I spend an inordinate amount of time doing research and am always happy to share any info I find, to be reticent to share just doesn't make sense to me at all. For me, ignorance is the root of all evil and to educate and communicate info is key to fostering greater understanding and mutual respect in our modern multi-cultural world. Not trying to start an argument, just a little baffled by the 'it's a secret' approach.


If Klaus does not want to share, you have to respect that. I think that he revealed already an important bit by disclosing the name of the lens.
I am personally more the "share all" kind of guy, but we're not all of the same mind, so we must respect our differences.

Last edited by Orio on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I fully agree with Orio. The internet has miseducated so many into some "tube fed" mentality, where "all is free and effortless - let another one do the work, I just google for it".

But enough about that lament and back to that famous Bertele lens design, I was able to find in a lens made by Zeiss Jena (not Hasselblad) - more about it later after I finished my studies about it.

Last edited by kds315* on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
mounted into some focusing helicoid





PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:

But enough about that lament and back to that famous Bertele lens design, I was able to find in a lens made by Zeiss Jena (no Hasselblad) - more about it later after I finished my studies about it.


Based on what Marco writes, Bertele was hired "by project" by Zeiss in the 50s, so, if it's a 4.5/38 Jena lens what you have in your hands, it must be an illegal plagiarism, something common in the Soviet Union but quite unheard from the DDR Jena factory, also because in that time, Jena was still providing Oberkochen with Tessar lenses for the Contax IIa and IIIa, so it would have been risky for Jena to do that at the risk of potentially losing the orders for the Tessars.
If instead it's a different kind of lens (I remember for instance of a 38mm Flektogon, but that was retrofocal), then the two projects might have evolved in a parallel way - but I have read nowhere of an involvement of Bertele with Eastern Zeiss in the 50s.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That looks strange. Cine lens? Surveillance camera lens?


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Microreproduction lens (for microfilm), highest resolution of about 260lpm (in theory).
Covers full format, distortion less than 5 microns over the entire field.

Last edited by kds315* on Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:18 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Microreproduction lens (for microfilm), highest resolution of about 260lpm (in theory).


Special lens, that makes sense for the resolution.
But usually these lenses are optimized for close focus range, while your lens seems to performs stunningly at infinity also.
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