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Using a 38mm Biogon / Lamegon design lens
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My Wollensak Apochromatic Raptar is also optimised for close-range work but it also works great at infinity. This is something LF photographers have known for a long time and they have used the Apo Raptars extensively.

I don't have the article to hand but when I was researching the Raptar I read that Dialyte-types like the Raptar and Artar were mostly optimised for close-ranges but in some later series liek the red-dot Artars, they compromised and tweaked the design to give good infinity performance as well.

What about this CZJ lens makes it obviously a Biogon design?


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
kds315* wrote:
Microreproduction lens (for microfilm), highest resolution of about 260lpm (in theory).


Special lens, that makes sense for the resolution.
But usually these lenses are optimized for close focus range, while your lens seems to performs stunningly at infinity also.


The Biogon was once designed as an ultra-wide angle lens, this is why I tried that one out also for infinity and was positively surprised by its performance!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
One day I hope to have your foresight when unearthing such a lens. I would have ignored it Embarassed


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have "ignored it" too for years, but then I got triggered by some papers I ran across while doing "lens research". It helps a lot to read "such stuff" Graham Wink Wink


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Orio wrote:
kds315* wrote:
Microreproduction lens (for microfilm), highest resolution of about 260lpm (in theory).


Special lens, that makes sense for the resolution.
But usually these lenses are optimized for close focus range, while your lens seems to performs stunningly at infinity also.


The Biogon was once designed as an ultra-wide angle lens, this is why I tried that one out also for infinity and was positively surprised by its performance!

+1 with Orio ;
The fact is that I never understood why people want to use enlarger lenses at infinity (there are so many better choices...), but NOW, I'm not so sure about that...


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some do work amazingly well, as has been shown here already!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Some do work amazingly well, as has been shown here already!

Well, I missed them. Until now, I just saw "regular" results. (enlarger lenses)
Perhaps, the name of one of this lens is still on your mind, and you could suggest it, so I can launch a search ?


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The photos posted by Patrick taken with a Nikkor enlarger lens were quite amazing.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
erm that reminds me to order a 39mm to 42mm adapter for my enlarging lenses...so cheap from Hong Kong £1.26 with free delivery.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
The photos posted by Patrick taken with a Nikkor enlarger lens were quite amazing.

Thx
Excalibur wrote:
erm that reminds me to order a 39mm to 42mm adapter for my enlarging lenses...so cheap from Hong Kong £1.26 with free delivery.

[What ??? Are you sure of that !? The link PLEASE ! (PM if you wish)] Erase this : I've read "helicoid"

Last edited by Phenix jc on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Enlarger lenses can be very good at infinity, I have a massive Docter Optics lens from a photo printing machine that is wonderful at infinity.




PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Enlarger lenses can be very good at infinity, I have a massive Docter Optics lens from a photo printing machine that is wonderful at infinity.



Yes, I'm remembering that bazooka, but so special...True anyway.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's not very practical due to the weight and size but it does work very well. One day I will find a big enough tripod mount ring and it will become much more useable. Handheld it's a recipe for sore arms and a bad back!



PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Its hard to be certain, but I'm not convinced that Klaus' lens, nice though it is, conforms to any of the three examples in Bertele's US Patent 2,721,499. The patent's f/4.5 example is embodied in the 38/4.5 Biogon that was mounted in, mainly, Compur shutters for the wide angle Hasselblad and in barrel and a variety of outlandish shutters for aerial cameras. The glasses in all of these lenses are the same, only the mountings vary. Some of the 38/4.5 Biogons that USAF used were made in the US appear to have been made by a variety of makers including Goerz and Viewlex, although the late Charlie Barringer liked to assert that they were all made by Zeiss and rebadged to get around US procurement regulations.

Sometime in the '90s(? I could be wrong about when), after demand from air forces had gone away and the only cameras that used 38/4.5 Biogons were the wide angle Hasselblad and the Alpa 12, the 38/4.5 Biogon was recomputed to use modern glasses that conformed to German environmental regulations. For all practical purposes, all 38/4.5 Biogons are, subject to manufacturing variations, identical. I've had 20 of them, all with focal length measured and engraved on the lens barrels by the camera manufacturer. They ranged from 35.3 mm to 35.8 mm.

I have a 38/4.5 Biogon in AGI F-135 mount in front of me. Its hard to be sure, but the front and rear glasses seem narrower, relative to the length of the barrel, than those of Klaus' lens. I just looked at the CZ datasheet for the 38/4.5 Biogon mounted for Hasselblad (http://applications.zeiss.com/C12578620052CA69/0/CE6C8FC96B67BBAFC125786A00312B2B/$file/biogon4-5_38mm_104117_e.pdf ), didn't see much in it in the way of dimensions.

Ian, I have another 38/4.5 Biogon in Copal #0 that I shoot it my little Century Graphic. It isn't at all bad at near distances. The closest I've tried has been around 25 cm.

The 40/5.6 S-Biogon doesn't conform to any of the examples in US Patent 2,721,499. It was sold as a fixed aperture repro lens and there seems to be no way to put the glasses in shutter. The problem is that the barrel is a stepped tube, with the bits of glass, some cemented, held in place with retaining rings. There are no cells as we usually thing of them to screw into a shutter.

Towards the end CZJ made a variety of wide angle lenses with trade names Lamegon and Super Lamegon. All of these were at least as good as the equivalent CZ (BRD) Biogon, some were better.

About enlarging lenses. Process lenses, are typically very slow although Apo-Gerogons are, IIRC, f/5.6, and are typically relatively narrow angle. Some types hold their corrections well at all distances, others don't. These beasts are not often used in photographic enlarging. Enlarging lenses are typically faster than process lenses -- ain't no f/2.8 process lenses -- and are used for projection printing. Some have been used in process cameras, but this isn't common.

Whether enlarging lenses are good at distance has been discussed forever. The best answer is, some are, most aren't. I haven't yet found one I'd use as a taking lens at distance but that doesn't mean there are none. To give an example of a lens that I think Klaus has, the 4"/5.6 Enlarging Pro Raptar is superb at its intended working distances. Mine is distinctly poor at infinity. How's yours, Klaus?

Cheers,

Dan


PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You hit the nail Dan, that lens design is a copy (or variation) of the Biogon which CZJ named LAMEGON (but since no-one except few people knows that, I used BIOGON to denote it, as the difference is minimal). It was made as a micro documentation lens for microfilm, so demanded very high resolution and a very flat field, so they used the Lamegon design with an reduced image angle. Total error over the total image area is fractions of microns only. I found a reference, but haven't gotten the full paper yet about those lenses and hope to find more about it in there.

The 4/40mm Biogon is indeed a great lens for sure, I know someone who has adapter it to his enlarger and gets great results, but as a taking lens, it is rather useless for normal cameras due to the short back focal length. I have several sitting around (incl. center filters) here.

Yes, I have that enlarging Raptar, but wasn't impressed much with it.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Klaus, this link http://books.google.com/books?id=FSMn1T1B-LEC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=%22super+lamegon%22&source=bl&ots=SE7cuGKiZC&sig=DO_K3frVyRglkhslIMjLrp9YbO8&hl=en&ei=4slJTcCUAoKClAfFmbAc&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22super%20lamegon%22&f=false will get you to Lamegon and Super Lamegon cross sections.

They're not Biogons.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very interesting Dan, cheers.

One EL I have that does work well at infinity is a Schneider Componon-S 5.6/100, very sharp with a flat field. Has some issues with contrast and flare though, needs a deep hood.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Lamegon


Now, that's what we call a rare lens.
The Thiele book lists only 317 Lamegons ever made!


PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Very interesting Dan, cheers.

One EL I have that does work well at infinity is a Schneider Componon-S 5.6/100, very sharp with a flat field. Has some issues with contrast and flare though, needs a deep hood.


Interesting. I once spent all of $30 on a 100/5.6 Componon-S to try it out as a taking lens, sold it because my 105/5.6 Saphir BX was much better. This story's morals are that: not all used lenses are alike; not all of us use the same acceptance testing procedures; not all of us have the same standards.

If you look at Boyer catalogs you'll see that they sold the Saphir BX as an enlarging lens. Eric Beltrando, who has the CEDIS-Boyer archives, insists vigorously that the Saphir BX is simply a rebadged Zircon; they have the same prescription. Sometimes lenses sold as enlarging lenses aren't optimized for enlarging.

And some of the lenses offered on eBay as enlarging lenses aren't either. For example, my 135/5.6 jes' plain Symmar that was in barrel when I bought it. Xenars and Tessars in barrel offered as enlarging lenses aren't rare. I think that ignorant sellers don't have the concept "taking lens in barrel."


PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
Quote:
Lamegon


Now, that's what we call a rare lens.
The Thiele book lists only 317 Lamegons ever made!
Are you sure? I ask not because I know better but because Charlie Barringer had four SMK-120s, i.e., eight 55/5.6 Lamegons. He occasionally came close to getting most or all examples of a rare lens but was confident that there were many more SMK-120s.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
danfromm wrote:

(...)
Whether enlarging lenses are good at distance has been discussed forever. The best answer is, some are, most aren't.
(...)
Cheers,

Dan

That sounds realistic for me ;
Hi Fi Surround knowledge here. Nice.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
danfromm wrote:

... four SMK-120s, i.e., eight 55/5.6 Lamegons.


I have to admit that I didn't understand this relationship. However this link helped.

I also found this paper which includes cross sections of the Lamegon design.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
sichko wrote:

I have to admit that I didn't understand this relationship. However this link helped.


Ah. That SMK 120. I know Norm and Hester. When they told me that a man they knew had it and wanted to dispose of it, I introduced them to Charlie. He corresponded with them, with their help came to terms with the seller, bought it, and eventually picked it up.

As far as I know he didn't bring it home to the US, left it in his house in Liège. Westlicht has much of his collection but I don't know if they have that SMK 120.

SMK is an acronym for Stereo Mess Kammer. If you want to know more about SMKs, this http://www.google.com/search?q=zeiss+smk&hl=en&num=100&lr=&ft=i&cr=&safe=images&tbs= Google search will bury you.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In German is is Stereo Messkammer, we love to join nouns Wink

The Thiele is far from being complete and some separate, specialized product lines are actually missing in his list.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Klaus, thanks for the correction.
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