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the joy of fully mechanical SLRs
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:30 pm    Post subject: the joy of fully mechanical SLRs Reply with quote
I recently added a Nikon FM2n to accompany my F100. Sure, I love spot metering and semi-automated features of the F100 but... I think the F100 can't beat the Nikon FM2n or the Voigtländer Bessaflex TM in terms of pure joy in use: Full control over what I want, fully mechanical features and none that I won't need.

- manual frame winder & film re-wind
- manual focus
- bright viewfinder, split-prism
- metering powered by long-life & inexpensive battery
- classic control layout
- the fast handling of a small SLR
- the quality feel

The only thing I dislike with film is that I cannot add versatility in use with the ability of switching ISO from one frame to another. Well, I have two Nikon SLRs now and I run two types of film in them so I am better equipped for diverse light now.

Dream camera? An FM2n with spot metering (shutter OK as is), D700/D3 sensor but everything fully manual. No automation, classic control layout with all knobs and handles as they were. Back panel could do with small LCD and small play/delete/WB buttons + crosshair/center button controller. The winder handle could be the ON/OFF button, open it up = activates camera electronics & metering. Left and right film space would occupy needed electronics and battery.



Anyone else who shares similar thoughts about fully manual & mechanical SLRs?


PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
aye.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, for a fully manual DSLR/rangefinder I might also do away with the LCD screen: storage cards are cheap, and deleting in camera is not really necessary. A reliable meter with manual lenses makes the LCD redundant.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ludoo wrote:
Yes, for a fully manual DSLR/rangefinder I might also do away with the LCD screen: storage cards are cheap, and deleting in camera is not really necessary. A reliable meter with manual lenses makes the LCD redundant.


Agreed, but I do love the histogram. That is the main thing I use the LCD for, mainly in difficult lighting situations. Apart from that, I would be very happy with a simple, manual, sturdy DSLR. No frills, just basic and high quality. High quality viewfinder, quality materials, long lasting electronics.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What I really would like is a Digital "film" kit - a sensor/electronics bundle that will fit in place of a 35mm cassette, with the sensor up where the film frame would go. It should be dead simple - no metering, nothing. It should have some threshhold logic to "take" the shot the moment the light comes on and goes off. This may get a little involved with focal plane shutters, but should be doable.

Just drop this into your favorite old 35mm camera, and use whatever it has for a shutter, meter, whatever. The first things I would pop it into are my Exaktas.

When you're done, pop it out and plug it into the old USB.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Esox, as far as I'm concerned you're "preaching to the choir" here. I learned the essentials of photography with manual/mechanical cameras, and I guess I still prefer them despite all the conveniences to be had with my DSLR and even with my EOS 35mm.

As for your wish for a manual camera with a spot meter, I know of one that has this feature -- the Olympus OM-3. Not only is it manual, but it is mechanical as well. But it is also highly prized by "Olympiphiles" and usually commands fairly stiff prices on the used market. For example:

Click here to see on Ebay

But for somebody like me who likes the old manual/mechanical tools, it is simply one of the finest ever made.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
What I really would like is a Digital "film" kit - a sensor/electronics bundle that will fit in place of a 35mm cassette, with the sensor up where the film frame would go. It should be dead simple - no metering, nothing. It should have some threshhold logic to "take" the shot the moment the light comes on and goes off. This may get a little involved with focal plane shutters, but should be doable.

Just drop this into your favorite old 35mm camera, and use whatever it has for a shutter, meter, whatever. The first things I would pop it into are my Exaktas.

When you're done, pop it out and plug it into the old USB.


Back just before the stock market crash in 2000, I bought stock in Irvine Sensors Corporation, and the reason why was because they had supposedly developed this concept to the testing stage. I was stoked, figuring it would be just a matter of a very short time before I'd be able to take digital pics with my Nikon F2. Well, the months went by and IRC spun off this technology to somebody else, where it promptly died. Shortly thereafter, IRC's stock price tanked and I lost a lot of money. I'm still pissed off over the whole deal.

Since then, this concept has been bandied about on photo forums ad nauseum, with the nay sayers shouting down the hopeful, braying about the unwieldy and inconvenient nature, if not the impossibility of it all. Somewhere after a lengthy measure of diatribe, they will then state, "Why bother, when you can buy a DSLR that will do all you hope to do with your old, clunky film camera, plus a whole lot more?"

Fundamentally, these people simply don't get it. I'm with you, Luis. I want to see somebody bring this sort of "digital camera in a cassette" to market, and I think it is long overdue.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ludoo wrote:
A reliable meter with manual lenses makes the LCD redundant.


Well, sort of, if you are going to use the camera as a spot meter and apply the zone system. But if you are trying to be really strict about avoiding blown highlights then a three-channel histogram is a very useful tool that can save a lot of time.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's a great idea. It would revive all the old SLRs whose design I find much neater and nicer than the dSLRs.



cooltouch wrote:
luisalegria wrote:
What I really would like is a Digital "film" kit - a sensor/electronics bundle that will fit in place of a 35mm cassette, with the sensor up where the film frame would go. It should be dead simple - no metering, nothing. It should have some threshhold logic to "take" the shot the moment the light comes on and goes off. This may get a little involved with focal plane shutters, but should be doable.

Just drop this into your favorite old 35mm camera, and use whatever it has for a shutter, meter, whatever. The first things I would pop it into are my Exaktas.

When you're done, pop it out and plug it into the old USB.


Back just before the stock market crash in 2000, I bought stock in Irvine Sensors Corporation, and the reason why was because they had supposedly developed this concept to the testing stage. I was stoked, figuring it would be just a matter of a very short time before I'd be able to take digital pics with my Nikon F2. Well, the months went by and IRC spun off this technology to somebody else, where it promptly died. Shortly thereafter, IRC's stock price tanked and I lost a lot of money. I'm still pissed off over the whole deal.

Since then, this concept has been bandied about on photo forums ad nauseum, with the nay sayers shouting down the hopeful, braying about the unwieldy and inconvenient nature, if not the impossibility of it all. Somewhere after a lengthy measure of diatribe, they will then state, "Why bother, when you can buy a DSLR that will do all you hope to do with your old, clunky film camera, plus a whole lot more?"

Fundamentally, these people simply don't get it. I'm with you, Luis. I want to see somebody bring this sort of "digital camera in a cassette" to market, and I think it is long overdue.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I like them (Old film cameras) for the feel,mechanics and they are basic tools and great teachers...although learning the basics is a trial but one worth persevering with Very Happy
Quote:
IRC's stock price tanked and I lost a lot of money

maybe the Big boys killed this idea??


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mo-Fo wrote:
maybe the Big boys killed this idea??


I think it doesn't require much folio to agree on this.

Digital backs suitable for most common medium format cameras have milked money out of the professional market for years, but if they had been brought out to a large consumer market it would have started sensor price erosion, undermined sales of DSLRs, cut profit margins and undercut AF lens market.

I too would easily want to ditch the LCD in favor of having just a multi-channel histogram, if that made it easier to manufacture it. As said, memory cards are dirt cheap and validating exposures from histograms is easier. Dammit, the big ones are pumping out 50 point-and-shoots each per year so it can't be a matter of resources.

It's probably overseen because our segment of the market is not considered as growing. Also, "going back" in time or favoring "retro approach" is probably considered by Japanese as admitting failure thus likely not going to happen.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Esox lucius wrote:

It's probably overseen because our segment of the market is not considered as growing

I think there is not enough money to be made for the big producers. Too low volumes, so prices would be very high to recuperate the initial investment.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="eeyore_nl"]
Esox lucius wrote:

I think there is not enough money to be made for the big producers. Too low volumes, so prices would be very high to recuperate the initial investment.


I agree. Just wishing for some limited production run model like year of the dragon, anniversary etc.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
What I really would like is a Digital "film" kit - a sensor/electronics bundle that will fit in place of a 35mm cassette, with the sensor up where the film frame would go. It should be dead simple - no metering, nothing. It should have some threshhold logic to "take" the shot the moment the light comes on and goes off. This may get a little involved with focal plane shutters, but should be doable.

Just drop this into your favorite old 35mm camera, and use whatever it has for a shutter, meter, whatever. The first things I would pop it into are my Exaktas.

When you're done, pop it out and plug it into the old USB.


Indeed! That would be a perfect gadget to have.
I guess even I would spend some money on such a device. Wink


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I still have my 20 years old Nikon FM2n, and have no plans to get rid of it.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Its why I have my Almaz 103 (despite the terrible rep for reliability- mine seems to be a good one) it just keeps going where other more modern cameras fail in dodgy weather:D


PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
What I really would like is a Digital "film" kit - a sensor/electronics bundle that will fit in place of a 35mm cassette, with the sensor up where the film frame would go. It should be dead simple - no metering, nothing. It should have some threshhold logic to "take" the shot the moment the light comes on and goes off. This may get a little involved with focal plane shutters, but should be doable.

Just drop this into your favorite old 35mm camera, and use whatever it has for a shutter, meter, whatever. The first things I would pop it into are my Exaktas.

When you're done, pop it out and plug it into the old USB.

Is this Groundhog Day, again? Smile
I would have loved for this to happen - for at the time I would have bought one for my OM-1 and others, if adaptable between cams. Thinking on that, it would have been perfectly possible to make a deeper unit to carry all the guts of it and make it a unified fit with various cheap-to-buy body adapters. The vast majority of 35mm SLRs have removeable backs of one form or another and there you have the necessary market numbers - there are millions of bodies out there with millions of lenses just waiting for a conversion. This isn't a new idea - the MedForm digiback conversions have been using something similar for years now.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
eeyore_nl wrote:
ludoo wrote:
Yes, for a fully manual DSLR/rangefinder I might also do away with the LCD screen: storage cards are cheap, and deleting in camera is not really necessary. A reliable meter with manual lenses makes the LCD redundant.


Agreed, but I do love the histogram. That is the main thing I use the LCD for, mainly in difficult lighting situations. Apart from that, I would be very happy with a simple, manual, sturdy DSLR. No frills, just basic and high quality. High quality viewfinder, quality materials, long lasting electronics.


I agree with eeyore_nl, the LCD for the histogram, please! I too "would be very happy with a simple, manual, sturdy DSLR. No frills, just basic and high quality. High quality viewfinder, quality materials, long lasting electronics." I use my dSLR in manual mode 100% of the time and I wish it didn't have all those other modes and switches and stuff that get accidentally activated now and then.


PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a Canon F1, Spotmatic II, Pentax super program and Olympus OM2 (amongst others) and I think that the joys of a fully manual camera is a little over-rated.

I prefer aperture priority to fully manual any day and I don´t see any practical benefit of manual over AV, in contrast it takes more time fiddling around with. To me the preference of a fully manual over a AV (ie. The om1 over the om2) is like prefering an old SLR with a broken light meter to one that is functioning! - (actually I guess sometimes it is fun to go with your instinct by guessing, like with an old rangefinder). I guess there is always the idea that you can use it without a battery as well. It is also nice to have a hunk of metal rather than some ugly plastic in your hands too.

Having said that I prefer using my OM2 over the pentax super program even though the pentax is easier to hold and has auto exposure, manual and Av. The OM just looks cooler so it is all kinda psychological.


PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Revolution wrote:
...I don´t see any practical benefit of manual over AV...


I get more accurate exposures manually than with AV (or other auto-exposure). I even use my dSLR manually.


PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
wildlightphoto wrote:
Revolution wrote:
...I don´t see any practical benefit of manual over AV...


I get more accurate exposures manually than with AV (or other auto-exposure). I even use my dSLR manually.


Is this in all situations or just tricky light situations? Could you explain further (with film cameras) ? there is also exposure comp +/- that can also be used right?


PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Revolution wrote:
wildlightphoto wrote:
Revolution wrote:
...I don´t see any practical benefit of manual over AV...


I get more accurate exposures manually than with AV (or other auto-exposure). I even use my dSLR manually.


Is this in all situations or just tricky light situations? Could you explain further (with film cameras) ? there is also exposure comp +/- that can also be used right?


I meter for the subject. As the animal moves against different backgrounds the exposure for the animal does not change. AE doesn't distinguish between the subject and the background.


PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok I see. In my case I just put my dog where I want her and say sit!
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