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Carl Zeiss Biogon 21/2.8 G
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Carl Zeiss Biogon 21/2.8 G Reply with quote
Here's my newest purchase in full exhibition: lens, viewfinder (both mounted on my G2), hard leather case, all paperwork, guarantee, and Zeiss Pruefzertifikat. Note the high serial number of the lens (80....):



Many people - amongst those that use rangefinders of course - think that this is the best 21mm lens ever produced.
There are many Leica users who bought this lens and sent it to servicing to have the mount modified to Leica M mount, because it is superior to Leica superwides. When Zeiss learned that, they produced a new version of the lens, directly with Leica M bayonet (Zeiss ZM series).

A guy, Contax fan, that was next to me when I was purchasing this lens, said that this Biogon is even better than the mythical Distagon 21 for Contax. He said he owned both and although the Distagon was sharper in the corners at wide open, the amount of distortion it has made it unsuitable for any architecture or seascape photography, while the Biogon is completely flat.
He said he could print wall size enlargement of photos taken with the Biogon, and have people "oooh" at them. I hope he told the truth!

I never used additional viewfinders before and I have to say, that this one has really exciting quality. I was expecting some muddy view, but Zeiss evidently has to know how to produce crystal clear viewfinders!

The only frustration is that with film, I can not take the usual test shots and I need to wait to have some time to go out, expose a roll, have it developed... Rolling Eyes gee we are spoiled by digital. Rolling Eyes

P.S. gear photo taken with 5D and Summicron-R 50 - another dream lens: look at the rendition of even this simple subject...
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Last edited by Orio on Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:19 am; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow! Congrats! You hunted down a rare bird!


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
Wow! Congrats! You hunted down a rare bird!


Yes, it's not common to find these new, anymore.

I am always happier when I can buy superwides that are new (especially if at half the price!). A scratch, that would mean nothing on a tele lens, could be a disaster on a superwide.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A wide open version of the same scene:



PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A view of the lens' rear. Note how much the rear protrudes outside of the barrel, and especially, note how the rear glass is exposed, protected only by the two lateral stands (that allow for placing the lens on a table without damaging the glass):



The lens intrudes deeply inside the camera, until the glass is placed at only a few millimetres distance from the film plane. This is one of the reasons behind the Biogon's exceptional field flatness. Of course the optical design plays a role, too Wink


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Congrats, you'll be VERY happy with that wonderful Zeiss masterpiece!!


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
only a few millimetres distance from the film plane


A secret why range finders produce better quality than SLR.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
congrats! a new biogon with serial 80xx!


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Many non-retrofocal wideangles perform very well regarding sharpness and lack of distortion. Light fall-off tends to be a big problem though. A test series of an evenly lit surface at different apertures might be interesting.

BTW, the product shot with the Leica-R 50/1.4 shows out-of-focus areas with a quality unpleasant to my eyes. Is that the case as well with the original picture or is it exacerbated by sharpening and jpeg compression for the web?


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
dickb wrote:
Many non-retrofocal wideangles perform very well regarding sharpness and lack of distortion. Light fall-off tends to be a big problem though. A test series of an evenly lit surface at different apertures might be interesting.


Yes, vignetting is a known problem with non-retrofocus lenses. This is the reason why Zeiss is now producing Distagons (retrofocus design) also for range finders.
I personally prefer much to have a perfectly flat lens with little vignetting, than a vignette-free lens with the kind of moustache distortion that the Distagon 21 has.
But I also have to say that the problem seems limited to the Distagon 21, I have the Distagon 18 and the distortion is definitely acceptable (although the Flek 20/4 is still the champion for reflex lenses).
Distortion-free superwides produce -for me- such emotional pictures, that I don't mind a little corner darkness. While the distortion that some wide lenses produce is such to spoil, for me, the picture of any pureness, and make it grotesque.
Of course pictures that are intentionally distorted for expressionist purpose, are a whole different matter.

dickb wrote:
BTW, the product shot with the Leica-R 50/1.4 shows out-of-focus areas with a quality unpleasant to my eyes. Is that the case as well with the original picture or is it exacerbated by sharpening and jpeg compression for the web?


Don't know, here's a 100% crop (click on thumbnail):


The last version of the Summicron-R (which I have) is sharp wide open but people who have both versions say that first version, which is softer, has better bokeh.
So I guess if you're a bokeh person then you should look more for a 1st version Summicron_R 50, or, even better, for a rangefinder Summicron 50, which, according to all the Leica users I talked to, is largely superior to all reflex versions. I can not make any judgement because I am only a very moderate Leica user (I only own a few R lenses).


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is a photo I took this winter with the Biogon 28:



The perspective lines are so pure, that they seem to be drawn with a CAD tool. This is the kind of results that I dream for from a super wide lens.
If the Biogon 21 will deliver this same pureness, I will be incredibly happy!


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow! What a gem! Congratulations, Orio!

BTW, the Summicron-R (that's a 2.0/50, right? A 1.4 would be a Summilux, I guess) is one of the few lenses I am still after... Wink


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LucisPictor wrote:
Wow! What a gem! Congratulations, Orio!

BTW, the Summicron-R (that's a 2.0/50, right? A 1.4 would be a Summilux, I guess) is one of the few lenses I am still after... Wink


Yes, Summicron lenses are f/2
Oh, yesterday I saw a Summilux-R 1.4/80.... Shocked Shocked


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks, Orio, for the larger image. Although this part isn't the most obvious of the (for me) distracting background it seems reasonable to say that it is characteristic of the lens, not the post processing. Nice to know which lenses are less interesting for me. I had read somewhere that some recent Leica lenses are more Zeiss in character (very sharp but compromising other aspects of IQ) and this lens seems to confirm that. Horses for courses, as they say. I love to play with the out of focus parts of my images, so I tend to be willing to sacrifice some sharpness for more pleasant bokeh.

Having a non-distorting wideangle would be nice, if necessary, vignetting can be corrected more easily than some wave type of distortion. The 15mm voigtlaender has a great reputation for having very limited distortion for a lens that wide. I once considered the F-mount version of that lens. Should be fun.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:

The lens intrudes deeply inside the camera, until the glass is placed at only a few millimetres distance from the film plane. This is one of the reasons behind the Biogon's exceptional field flatness. Of course the optical design plays a role, too Wink


I assume therefore that, if there was ever a digital back for these cameras, this lens would perform less well because light from the rear lens would strike the sensor at too acute an angle.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Congrats on the purchase, that looks like a very interesting lens. I look forward to the first shots once the glacial analogue process has run its course ...


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ChrisLilley wrote:

I assume therefore that, if there was ever a digital back for these cameras, this lens would perform less well because light from the rear lens would strike the sensor at too acute an angle.


Yes, in fact this is the reason why Leica produced the digital M in the 4/3 format.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
ChrisLilley wrote:

I assume therefore that, if there was ever a digital back for these cameras, this lens would perform less well because light from the rear lens would strike the sensor at too acute an angle.


Yes, in fact this is the reason why Leica produced the digital M in the 4/3 format.


That's not entirely right, Orio. The digital "M" (M8 ) uses a 1.3crop sensor. Leicas digital SLR uses the 4/3.

Still, the reason is true. Leica was not able to guarantee an optimum performance on a full frame sensor in the M8, so they decided to go for a cropped one (according to LFI).


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
excellent stuff, congrats Orio!


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
All I can do is drool! Congrats.

Jules


PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lulalake wrote:
All I can do is drool! Congrats.

Jules


Agree, drool cup in place! Laughing What a sweet outfit, Orio!

Let Biogons, be Biogons, I think the saying goes... Wink


PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have shot a test roll with the lens.
I have three opinions now:

1) it is extremely difficult to use such lens on a rangefinder! the additional viewfinder, although clear, does not let you evaluate the architectural lines correctly. It is enough just a LITTLE pitch variation from the optimal, to obtain slanted lines. One should really use this lens on a tripod with a spirit level tool to be sure of the result.

2) When you photograph at correct pitch, the lens is very well corrected. Well initially I was a bit let down, because it's not as pure as the Biogon 28 in terms of distortion - it still has some. But on a second thought, I was perhaps too demanding with my expectation - the fact is, I am still spoiled by the Flek 20/4 and expect any 20-21mm lens to be that perfect... but so far I have not found any that could.

3) Dang the lens is SHARP!!! I used a Velvia 100 film and I can tell you, the film grain seems bigger than the captured details! (I know it is impossible - it just looks like) It is way much sharper than any of the retrofocus lenses in the 18-21mm range that I have ever tried.

Now the samples - I am very very pleased by this lens. The Italian reviewer on the Nadir page stated that this lens produces photos with an incredible "ariosity" and I have to agree with him - it really gives the output of the Hollywood 28 but in the 21mm FL, and possibly even sharper Shocked

All samples taken with Contax G2 rangefinder on Velvia 100 slide film.

01. My living room


02. View from my rear balcony


03. Melissa on the balcony


04. View from the balcony


05. View from the balcony


06. In the Mazzini Park


07. Zoja's thermal building


08. The Laboratories of the old Berzieri thermal building


09. Gardens of the Warowland Palazzina


10. The Laboratories of the old Berzieri thermal building


11. A close-up, very close!


12. Inside of the Warowland Palazzina gardens


13. Section of the old Berzieri thermal building


14. Section of the old Berzieri thermal building


PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That lens and the Velvia combo really pops.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio

That looks like a real dream combination. Sometimes I wish that I could go back to film, but for me it is too much of a "jump" now. Smile Smile Smile


patrickh


PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I missed this thread, these are all stunning pics! Shocked Good job,
scanning, too, Orio!

I've got to start trying slide film, my absolute fave is Melissa on the
balcony!
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