Canon is going mirrorless!!

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

I do wonder if this new Canon mirrorless won't just be a G1X with a lens mount instead of a built-in zoom...

Nikon went for a small sensor and Panasonic, Pentax and Olympus have small sensors.

Leaving Sony and Samsung as the best options in mirrorless for users of MF lenses, not counting the Leica M9 as it's out of the reach of most people, the Fuji camera looks interesting but also expensive and the X100 wasn't impressive in IQ.

If Samsung can make a great mirrorless camera with a APS-C sensor for less than 200eu then why can't the others?

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

I was just going by the X100 samples I've seen, reminded me of the NEX with kit lens. Maybe the X100 sensor is good but hamstrung by the lens?

me · Joined: 02 May 2012 Posts: 10

@AhamB Glad someone mentioned the GH2, which hacked actually beats all of the above, and even holds a torch to the RED. The hacked GH2 has become the standard for DSLR video with absolutely no competition (yet)

This video is not even the highest end Hack, and Vimeo greatly reduces the bit rate, not to mention knocked my video down to 30fps (was shot at 720p 60fps, bit rate is variable averaging around 100 before vimeo reduction). The video was shot with the boring kit 14-42 lens too Wink

https://vimeo.com/41250032

You can download the original MTS file here http://www.2shared.com/file/H-rCwOAf/00049.html to watch this in full quality. Be forewarned, it's a big file, and allot of computers aren't up to the challenge of playing it smoothly. But if yours can, it's worth it. Beee you tee full !

Sorry, my camera wins Wink

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Yes Larry's were, others weren't, but Larry is a great shooter.

I think the images that failed to impress me were higher ISO shots, I never shoot at higher ISOs so performance at those settings is moot to me, I own a tripod. Smile

fermy · Joined: 17 Feb 2012 Posts: 1974

It's pretty much universally accepted that Fuji X100 eats NEX-3 for lunch for IQ, high or low ISO. As always, it's a hyperbola, but it does have a slight IQ edge over NEX. On the other hand Fuji is a finicky camera, with various firmware glitches, aperture blades getting stuck and what not.

Hood · Expire: 2013-09-16

I think if you did the comparison to the nex5n the advantage would shift again.

I have come across a few M9 owners now who also own 5n's for shooting thier M glass when not wanting to risk thier M9 or for higher iso work.
...and I have heard on more occasion than one, that these guys have trouble telling the difference between the files from each camera. The IQ from the 5n is that good!

...then again I have also seen similar comparisons between the M9 and the X100. Wink

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

Hood · Expire: 2013-09-16

They are not talking about the focal length mate.
I know you are just joking around.
They are talking about the IQ. Wink

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

Hood · Expire: 2013-09-16

I am just repeating opinions that I have read expressed on photographers blogs.
I cannot talk from personal experience.

me · Joined: 02 May 2012 Posts: 10

Is the GH2 like the giant squid we all just ignore? Laughing

Not knocking the other cameras, but for video on a M 4/3 it's much worth checking out why the GH2 leaves the others in the dirt if you haven't already. If you are unfamiliar with the hacks that turn this camera into a beast, check out personal-view.com I am shooting at 720p at around 100 mega bits per second, 1080p hacks can be as high as 170, and there are lower end hacks for more conservative users. This is up from the original 17 mbs that the camera is shooting at stock.

Not trying to plug here, and I have no loyalty to panasonic, just the hacked version of the camera and the community that makes it possible.

Aanything · Expire: 2014-05-30

me · Joined: 02 May 2012 Posts: 10

You are correct, and the ceiling for quality was around 170 and many of the top hacks are between 70 and 150. Most of the stuff to do with the creations of the hacks is over my head still, but I assure you the hacks have been optimized for quality, many things beyond the bit rates have been changed, including color profiles. The latest hack is called VY Canis Majoris and the creator is Driftwood. If you want to follow the testing of the hack now is a good time since it was just released 4 or 5 days ago. here is the link. http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/3056/driftwood-vy-canis-majoris-night-day-pm-skin-tone-soft...-more-to-come/p1

Aanything · Expire: 2014-05-30

Thanks, really interesting.

ramcewan · Joined: 02 Mar 2012 Posts: 198 Location: New England, USA

lets be honest with each other for a moment.... Most people in the mirror-less market are and will remain those looking for something better than a P&S that can be used with multiple lenses like a DSLR. In this arena two things matter most; lens choice and price.

Cannon does well in the DSLR market and the SLR market before that because not only can you get a nice camera for a decent price (most of their sales are not the 5D type) from Cannon but you can get many many lenses for that camera. Likewise Nikon still does well in this market by offering affordable bodies with many lens choices.

Olympus and Panasonic are doing well in the M4/3 market because they have a shared lens mount with many choices. Adding adapter for FT and all the MF lenses the user of these cameras has many choices. Not to mention all the models are very affordable with even the OM-D being just under a grand for the body.

Sony does well in the mirror-less market because they make an excellent product and it is very adaptable to MF lenses as evidence by the number of users here with Nex cameras. Likewise it is very affordable.

Nikon and Samsung mirror-less are niche cameras in part because they went with their own mounts and there is less choice for lenses.

Fuji is too much $$, you're over $2,000 USD just for a camera and a lens. This appeals to those who would also consider a Leica and well if you had the choice and obviously money isn't a concern you'd go for the Leica, what's a few grand more when you're at double the price of an OM-D alread?

Sigma is building 19mm and 30mm lenses for just two mirror-less mounts; m43 and Nex, they clearly agree this is where the market is.

Cannon could own the market in a few years if they made a mirror-less that supported AF/AE for a large number of legacy lenses from Cannon or they went with a m43 mount. If Cannon adopts it's large sensor P&S to be interchangeable lens and sells a few lenses in a new mount then it will not do well and Oly/Panny and Sony will continue to dominate.

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

I dunno about Samsung being 'niche' they offer a APS-C sensor at a great price and apart from c-mounts (where very few will cover the sensor) anything you can put on a NEX you can put on an NX.

Samsung's lenses are great and cheap too, I just hope they can continue to build market share because they are offering a superior product to most of the others at a lower price, that is the way to go.

Considering a brand new NX10 with a 14mp APS-C sensor and an excellent 20-50 kit lens cost me 180ukp from a major high-street retailer, then the offerings from others look distinctly overpriced and with their smaller sensors (apart from the NEX and Fuji) are much less capable with old MF lenses.

Obviously Samsung saw the great sales of the NEX so created the NX, let's hope the OM-D sells really well then Samsung will produce something similar but with an APS-C sensor, that would be a fantastic camera.

I do wonder why the NEX-7 sold so well when the NX200 was such a good camera and cheaper, I guess a large part of it is because people like to be able to boast 'ooh look, I have a NEX-7 or a Fuji X100 etc' and the Samsung name doesn't have the same cachet.

I'm a photographer, not a gear freak, I could care less what it says on the front of my camera or who made it, I just want the best bang for my buck.

ramcewan · Joined: 02 Mar 2012 Posts: 198 Location: New England, USA

Ian,

Yes the Samsung is probably a better camera then the m43s, in fact I am somewhat miffed I didn't see or consider it when I was buying. Samsung is great at coming out with something very similar to a top market leader and selling it for a cheaper price, often times after being involved in the manufacture of the top market leader's device. Take for example the iPhone which Samsung made many parts for and then Samsung comes out with the Galaxy phones, ditto the iPad and Samsung Tab series, they can't even come up with original names, I mean the NX series is one letter away from the very similar NEX series. I remember when Samsung first appeared in the USA they were making VCRs that were almost exactly the same as the Sony ones but at 1/3 less price, back then Samsung was an off brand, now they've got their own name but they still continue to copy the competition, a win for the consumer but frustrating for the competition.

That said you can't argue with the numbers, in Japan in 2011 Olympus had 36.6 percent share, Panasonic 29.3 percent, and Sony 27.3 percent. That is 2/3 of the mirror-less market between the three of them. I expect we'll see that trend continue for 2012.

I know the sensor size is easy to grasp onto and say the m43 will never be that good because it has a small sensor size but I tend to disagree. The m43 sensor is big enough to achieve the DOF missing from smaller sensored cameras. I think given the performance seen from the latest crop of 16 MP m43 sensors in the Panasonic and OM-D people are not going to feel like they are missing something. Megapixels will go up for m43 and noise will decrease or remain manageable.

The lenses and ergonomics are what make the difference for many and Olympus has that nailed imho. If the OM-D is as huge a hit as it's shaping up to be m43 is going to keep dominating.

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Well, the M4/3 sensor is too small for me, it doesn't suit my lens collection. I really don't like this trend towards smaller sensors. I don't want to use modern plastic zoom lenses, I want to use superb old lenses made of metal and glass that have already lasted 50 or more years, how many of these modern plastic pieces of crap will still work in 5 years, let alone 50? A friend has had 5 copies of the Canon EF 1.8/50 in the last 6 years since he bought his digital EOS, he loves the IQ of that lens and just lives with the fact it will fall apart and he will have to buy another one, he reasons 'it's only 80 quid' and I laugh because I know full well I have a dozen 50mm lenses that are as good and will never break unless I really abuse them and they cost a mere fraction of that 80 quid.

I really don't see what people have against Samsung, they are providing a great product at a great price, makes it hard to understand why people fawn over something like the OM-D when you can buy something like the NX11 for a lot less:

I still think it largely boils down to boasting, people like to be able to boast 'look I got an OM-D' or 'look I got an iphone' when to me, they look stupid because they spent more money for no good reason other than image and name tag. It's part of the capitalist mentality that I truly abhor.

ramcewan · Joined: 02 Mar 2012 Posts: 198 Location: New England, USA

fermy · Joined: 17 Feb 2012 Posts: 1974

I agree that Samsung have a great system, but failing miserably to make any impact in sales. However, the main strength of their system is a good selection of well priced native lenses paired with APS-C sensor. I guess it's too subtle for most buyers, since m4/3 has the best selection of native lenses, while NEX has the best sensor.

As a platform for legacy glass though, Samsung is not that great. m4/3 has a distinct edge for Tele lenses, while NEX has distinct edge for wides due to better sensor, peaking, smaller form factor. In addition Samsung loses not only on c-mounts, but also on Leica M glass.