| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
tromboads
Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 1782
Location: Melbourne AU
Expire: 2015-10-01
|
 Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:30 am Post subject: |
 |
|
tromboads wrote:
for the dog reference..
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 260
Location: Bremen, Germany
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
blende8 wrote:
| uhoh7 wrote: |
then we have colorshift issues which are related to smearing to some degree I think, but it's nice to have less of that for sure. |
What is the reason for this colorshift in the A7r compared to the A7?
Where's this discussed?
_________________
Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ManualFocus-G
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 6624
Location: United Kingdom
Expire: 2014-11-24
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
ManualFocus-G wrote:
The colour shift issues are well documented for the a7r. Glad you are getting on better with the a7.
_________________
Graham - Moderator 
Shooter of choice: Fujifilm X-T20 with M42, PB and C/Y lenses
See my Flickr photos at http://www.flickr.com/photos/manualfocus-g |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DSG
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 544
Location: London, UK.
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
DSG wrote:
| uhoh7 wrote: |
| DSG wrote: |
| uhoh7 wrote: |
Today I arranged to return my A7r. A7 will arrive Wednesday  |
???...Are you mad? The A7r is currently the sharpest Bayer/CFA sensor camera in the world...OK, not Foveon X3 sensor sharp, but bloody sharp none the less. Here is a 100% crop comparison (from dpreview) between the A7r, the A7, the D800 and the 5D MkIII (sorry but I don't have a crop from the D800E to compare)...The A7r cannot be beat!
|
Just goes to show what little use those tests are in the real world. I think with the native lenses the A7r will be fine. It is highly flawed shooting all sorts of legacy glass 35 and wider. That's my opinion after thousands of shots with many lenses.
The A7 is far better with the legacy glass, though still flawed.
There are exceptions at 50mm and higher.
The extra rez of the A7r is gone by the time you see shots on your screen (a great one) and at anything but large print sizes.
So if AF sony glass is your thing, the A7r is fine. Otherwise I feel it is inferior. My own opinion coming from alot of use with glass I care about.
I have never sent a camera back before. I don't regret the switch. But each should make up their own mind. No doubt superb images can be made with the A7r and practically any lens. But frankly the M9 walks all over it in the real world: just because sony has covered their sensors with too many layers.
That was not the opinion I expected to have when I ordered the camera. |
I'm sorry but its totally ludicrous to try and compare the M9 with the A7r because the A7r literally leaves it for dust is virtually every single respect! For example, the A7r has twice the resolution as the M9, it can go to ISO 25000 vs ISO 2500, its LCD screen is articulated vs fixed, it has an extra 1 million dots (!) and its 1/2" bigger, it can shoot at 1/8000ths/sec vs 1/4000ths/sec, its 135 grams lighter, its got a lens mount that can take virtually any lens going via the relevant adapter vs only Leica M (and perhaps Leica R?, assuming an adapter is available?), its not as wide, it has full HD video vs none at all, it even has 60fps at full HD (!)...and the clincher is that its over £4000 cheaper!!! (body only)...There really is no comparison! If I could afford an A7r I'd get one in a heartbeat...Sadly I have to pay my car loan off first so it will be months before I can even think about getting one, which is why the thought of you returning such a great camera and willingly downgrading to a lesser version seems totally mad to me! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DSG
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 544
Location: London, UK.
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
DSG wrote:
| ManualFocus-G wrote: |
| The colour shift issues are well documented for the a7r. Glad you are getting on better with the a7. |
What colour shift issues? I am used to processing every single pic that I deem good enough to keep with Photoshop...Where colour issues can be quickly and easily taken care of...So there will be no issue with colour for me! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 260
Location: Bremen, Germany
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
blende8 wrote:
Do you mean this?
http://www.leica-boss.com/2013/12/the-problem-with-sonys-zeiss-fe-sonnar-t-fe-35mm-f2-8-za-sel35f28z/
_________________
Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DSG
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 544
Location: London, UK.
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
DSG wrote:
| uhoh7 wrote: |
| DSG wrote: |
| uhoh7 wrote: |
| Today I arranged to return my A7r. A7 will arrive Wednesday |
???...Are you mad? The A7r is currently the sharpest Bayer/CFA sensor camera in the world...OK, not Foveon X3 sensor sharp, but bloody sharp none the less. Here is a 100% crop comparison (from dpreview) between the A7r, the A7, the D800 and the 5D MkIII (sorry but I don't have a crop from the D800E to compare)...The A7r cannot be beat!
|
Just goes to show what little use those tests are in the real world. I think with the native lenses the A7r will be fine. It is highly flawed shooting all sorts of legacy glass 35 and wider. That's my opinion after thousands of shots with many lenses.
The A7 is far better with the legacy glass, though still flawed.
There are exceptions at 50mm and higher.
The extra rez of the A7r is gone by the time you see shots on your screen (a great one) and at anything but large print sizes. |
Only if you post downsized images...Post full sized images (or the more usual 100% crops) and the resolution advantage of the A7r will be patently obvious. I make no secret of the fact I am a very keen pixel peeper...Which is why I often like to post 100% crops along with downsized images for the benefit of others like myself who want to see how much resolution a camera actually has. And having no AA filter, there is currently no FF camera with higher resolution than the A7r. It even makes the D800 look like Cr@p! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 260
Location: Bremen, Germany
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
blende8 wrote:
Aren't both sensors out-resolve any lens?
From what I've read the very, very best lenses can resolve about 70 lines in the center.
The A7 has 80 lines and the A7r above 100.
_________________
Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DSG
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 544
Location: London, UK.
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
DSG wrote:
Well according to the article above, the problem seems to be restricted to when Sony’s FE 35mm f2.8 is used...It appears to make no mention of such an issue surfacing when using other Sony lenses or legacy glass...Me thinks the problem may have been a tad over exaggerated by some here. 
Last edited by DSG on Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DSG
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 544
Location: London, UK.
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
DSG wrote:
| tromboads wrote: |
sharpness barpness!
Sharpness is boring! I want character, mood, feeling, circles and vague thoughts! |
Sharpness is never boring, as it what makes photos resemble reality as seen by the human eye, which is surely what every photographer seeks to capture, isn't it?
Besides, if you want vagueness and unrealism then using any camera with a FF sensor will help you by offering a very shallow DOF compared to when using crop format. Then add an old, soft, fast legacy lens, used wide open, and your well on your way to blurry Picassoism!. The final touches of photographic vandalism can be easily performed with Photoshop, which, lets face it, can make even the most realistic looking photo end up looking like some awful hand drawing ineptly scribbled by some mentally deficient kid in a nursery class!...If that's what you prefer, then fair enough, whatever floats your boat, but you'll forgive me if I prefer sharpness instead. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Excalibur
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 5019
Location: UK
Expire: 2014-04-21
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Excalibur wrote:
| DSG wrote: |
| tromboads wrote: |
sharpness barpness!
Sharpness is boring! I want character, mood, feeling, circles and vague thoughts! |
Sharpness is never boring, as it what makes photos resemble reality as seen by the human eye, which is surely what every photographer seeks to capture, isn't it?
|
Well would agree sharpness is very handy for backup, but have some consideration for older women who do not want to see the reality of "crows feet" all over their face in a shot.
_________________
Canon A1, AV1, T70 & T90, EOS 300 and EOS300v, Chinon CE and CP-7M. Contax 139, Fuji STX-2, Konica Autoreflex TC, FS-1, FT-1, Minolta X-700, X-300, XD-11, SRT101b, Nikon EM, FM, F4, F90X, Olympus OM2, Pentax S3, Spotmatic, Pentax ME super, Praktica TL 5B, & BC1, , Ricoh KR10super, Yashica T5D, Bronica Etrs, Mamiya RB67 pro AND drum roll:- a Sony Nex 3
.........past gear Tele Rolleiflex and Rollei SL66.
Many lenses from good to excellent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 15685
Expire: 2014-01-07
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
| blende8 wrote: |
Aren't both sensors out-resolve any lens?
From what I've read the very, very best lenses can resolve about 70 lines in the center.
The A7 has 80 lines and the A7r above 100. |
Yup.
Sharpness is very over-rated and pixel peeping is the domain of geeks rather than photographers. Sharp enough is sharp enough, and considering most images end up on the web resized to low resolution it's all rather comical.
I'm sure the A7 and A7r take very nice pictures. So do a lot of other cameras.
A good photographer will just make the most of what he has to hand and produce good images regardless.
So much fuss and nonsense ever since these new Sonys were announced. It has grown to be very tiresome.
If people put the same energy into actual photography they have put into talking about these cameras then they would have done themselves a whole lot more good.
_________________
I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GeorgeSalt
Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 336
Location: Norfolk, UK
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
GeorgeSalt wrote:
| DSG wrote: |
| tromboads wrote: |
sharpness barpness!
Sharpness is boring! I want character, mood, feeling, circles and vague thoughts! |
Sharpness is never boring, as it what makes photos resemble reality as seen by the human eye, which is surely what every photographer seeks to capture, isn't it?
Besides, if you want vagueness and unrealism then using any camera with a FF sensor will help you by offering a very shallow DOF compared to when using crop format. Then add an old, soft, fast legacy lens, used wide open, and your well on your way to blurry Picassoism!. The final touches of photographic vandalism can be easily performed with Photoshop, which, lets face it, can make even the most realistic looking photo end up looking like some awful hand drawing ineptly scribbled by some mentally deficient kid in a nursery class!...If that's what you prefer, then fair enough, whatever floats your boat, but you'll forgive me if I prefer sharpness instead. |
If all that can be said about an image is that it's sharp, then it's a very boring image indeed and of little tono merit in the grand scheme of things. So sharpness is certainly not the most important thing. There are very many photographers who dedicate themselves to sharpness and technical perfection, and who then wonder why the world doesn't give a toss about their images and no one spares them a second glance.
It's the "mentally deficient kid in a nursery class" who crayons the image that's loved by family and friends and admired at daily over many years as it hangs in pride of place on the fridge door. If your images aren't the ones on the fridge door then you're poorer artist. The most precious images in the world are hung on fridge doors, you should aspire to get yours hung there. Sharpness isn't the gatekeeper to that gallery.
And please, lets leave the mental-disability-as-insult meme on the playground. This is a forum for adults and it's no longer the 1970s. You only insult your own intelligence with comments like that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DSG
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 544
Location: London, UK.
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
DSG wrote:
| iangreenhalgh1 wrote: |
| blende8 wrote: |
Aren't both sensors out-resolve any lens?
From what I've read the very, very best lenses can resolve about 70 lines in the center.
The A7 has 80 lines and the A7r above 100. |
Yup.
Sharpness is very over-rated and pixel peeping is the domain of geeks rather than photographers. Sharp enough is sharp enough, and considering most images end up on the web resized to low resolution it's all rather comical.
I'm sure the A7 and A7r take very nice pictures. So do a lot of other cameras.
A good photographer will just make the most of what he has to hand and produce good images regardless.
So much fuss and nonsense ever since these new Sonys were announced. It has grown to be very tiresome.
If people put the same energy into actual photography they have put into talking about these cameras then they would have done themselves a whole lot more good. |
True, but there is just as much fun talking about cameras as there is taking photos...If that weren't the case then there would be no need for forums like this! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DSG
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 544
Location: London, UK.
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
DSG wrote:
| GeorgeSalt wrote: |
| DSG wrote: |
| tromboads wrote: |
sharpness barpness!
Sharpness is boring! I want character, mood, feeling, circles and vague thoughts! |
Sharpness is never boring, as it what makes photos resemble reality as seen by the human eye, which is surely what every photographer seeks to capture, isn't it?
Besides, if you want vagueness and unrealism then using any camera with a FF sensor will help you by offering a very shallow DOF compared to when using crop format. Then add an old, soft, fast legacy lens, used wide open, and your well on your way to blurry Picassoism!. The final touches of photographic vandalism can be easily performed with Photoshop, which, lets face it, can make even the most realistic looking photo end up looking like some awful hand drawing ineptly scribbled by some mentally deficient kid in a nursery class!...If that's what you prefer, then fair enough, whatever floats your boat, but you'll forgive me if I prefer sharpness instead. |
If all that can be said about an image is that it's sharp, then it's a very boring image indeed and of little tono merit in the grand scheme of things. So sharpness is certainly not the most important thing. There are very many photographers who dedicate themselves to sharpness and technical perfection, and who then wonder why the world doesn't give a toss about their images and no one spares them a second glance.
It's the "mentally deficient kid in a nursery class" who crayons the image that's loved by family and friends and admired at daily over many years as it hangs in pride of place on the fridge door. If your images aren't the ones on the fridge door then you're poorer artist. The most precious images in the world are hung on fridge doors, you should aspire to get yours hung there. Sharpness isn't the gatekeeper to that gallery.
And please, lets leave the mental-disability-as-insult meme on the playground. This is a forum for adults and it's no longer the 1970s. You only insult your own intelligence with comments like that. |
It was just an analogy...If its too close to home for you then I apologise. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ManualFocus-G
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 6624
Location: United Kingdom
Expire: 2014-11-24
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
ManualFocus-G wrote:
| DSG wrote: |
| ManualFocus-G wrote: |
| The colour shift issues are well documented for the a7r. Glad you are getting on better with the a7. |
What colour shift issues? I am used to processing every single pic that I deem good enough to keep with Photoshop...Where colour issues can be quickly and easily taken care of...So there will be no issue with colour for me! |
Wide rangefinder lenses are notorious for colour shift problems on the a7r. I'm not going to list all the various threads for you though One of the problems is creating a workflow for removing corner based colour shift (which varies for each lens at different apertures) without ruining the image.
_________________
Graham - Moderator
Shooter of choice: Fujifilm X-T20 with M42, PB and C/Y lenses
See my Flickr photos at http://www.flickr.com/photos/manualfocus-g |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DSG
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 544
Location: London, UK.
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
DSG wrote:
| ManualFocus-G wrote: |
| DSG wrote: |
| ManualFocus-G wrote: |
| The colour shift issues are well documented for the a7r. Glad you are getting on better with the a7. |
What colour shift issues? I am used to processing every single pic that I deem good enough to keep with Photoshop...Where colour issues can be quickly and easily taken care of...So there will be no issue with colour for me! |
Wide rangefinder lenses are notorious for colour shift problems on the a7r. I'm not going to list all the various threads for you though One of the problems is creating a workflow for removing corner based colour shift (which varies for each lens at different apertures) without ruining the image. |
If I understand you correctly, your saying that its only rangefinder (short registration distance lenses) that cause the colour shift problem? I don't have any rangefinder lenses so that shouldn't be an issue for me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tromboads
Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 1782
Location: Melbourne AU
Expire: 2015-10-01
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tromboads wrote:
| uhoh7 wrote: |
| LOL and you can always find a nice Pentax logo to paste over the "Sony", and no one will ever know |
Some already have
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nordentro
Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 4713
Location: Lillehammer, Norway
Expire: 2015-01-29
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nordentro wrote:
| DSG wrote: |
| ManualFocus-G wrote: |
| DSG wrote: |
| ManualFocus-G wrote: |
| The colour shift issues are well documented for the a7r. Glad you are getting on better with the a7. |
What colour shift issues? I am used to processing every single pic that I deem good enough to keep with Photoshop...Where colour issues can be quickly and easily taken care of...So there will be no issue with colour for me! |
Wide rangefinder lenses are notorious for colour shift problems on the a7r. I'm not going to list all the various threads for you though One of the problems is creating a workflow for removing corner based colour shift (which varies for each lens at different apertures) without ruining the image. |
If I understand you correctly, your saying that its only rangefinder (short registration distance lenses) that cause the colour shift problem? I don't have any rangefinder lenses so that shouldn't be an issue for me. |
Yes true. It is only on short register distance lenses this is an issue, and even some wide RF lenses are not that bad really and can easely be fixed with software
There is no "problems" with this on wide SLR lenses.
_________________
Lars | Manuellfokus.no |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
uhoh7
Joined: 24 Nov 2010
Posts: 1300
Location: Idaho, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
uhoh7 wrote:
| DSG wrote: |
| ManualFocus-G wrote: |
| DSG wrote: |
| ManualFocus-G wrote: |
| The colour shift issues are well documented for the a7r. Glad you are getting on better with the a7. |
What colour shift issues? I am used to processing every single pic that I deem good enough to keep with Photoshop...Where colour issues can be quickly and easily taken care of...So there will be no issue with colour for me! |
Wide rangefinder lenses are notorious for colour shift problems on the a7r. I'm not going to list all the various threads for you though One of the problems is creating a workflow for removing corner based colour shift (which varies for each lens at different apertures) without ruining the image. |
If I understand you correctly, your saying that its only rangefinder (short registration distance lenses) that cause the colour shift problem? I don't have any rangefinder lenses so that shouldn't be an issue for me. |
Sorry but you have no clue-- not your fault since you don't own either camera.
The A7r is a highly flawed machine with many lenses, not just RF wides. It's also a great machine with some glass.
The A7 is way more versatile and has plenty resolution.
The M9 is far superior to both in the right hands with the right glass.
I don't say that lightly, and I didn't believe it a month a ago. But in that time I have learned alot.
Here is the M9 with a good 28:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4056/4289050214_ae9714633e_o.jpg
A7r nor A7 can touch this with any 28. Please show me sample if I'm wrong.
True the M9 is bad at high ISO. I rarely shoot at high ISO myself. You still gain all kinds of grain on the sonys. Better to use a nice fast lens. You can do that on the M9, but on the sonys the super speeds loose their edges at wide apertures: not in every case, but many.
Why are the sonys flawed? Because sony decided, stupidly, to put a thick series of layers over their sensors and then use specially designed native glass and their processor to resolve the edges.
I would say the A7 is very much worth owning, despite these issues.
_________________
Making MFlenses safe for the letter *L* |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
uhoh7
Joined: 24 Nov 2010
Posts: 1300
Location: Idaho, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
uhoh7 wrote:
A7 + 50 cron v4
DSC01248 by unoh7, on Flickr
DSC01277-3 by unoh7, on Flickr
DSC01148 by unoh7, on Flickr
_________________
Making MFlenses safe for the letter *L* |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 260
Location: Bremen, Germany
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
blende8 wrote:
An argument for the A7 over the A7r:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-shutter-vibration-issue-explained-by-joseph-holmes/
Quote:
"It has also been conclusively shown by Lloyd’s testing that the electronic first curtain of the A7 eliminates all of this pernicious camera shake."
_________________
Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tromboads
Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 1782
Location: Melbourne AU
Expire: 2015-10-01
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
tromboads wrote:
cant keep everyone happy all of the time.  So now they are too small and light there mirrors are so big they go BANG!
Its a Pentax ME Super all over again
Something about the right tool for the... bah what does it matter |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ManualFocus-G
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 6624
Location: United Kingdom
Expire: 2014-11-24
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
ManualFocus-G wrote:
As an aside, I've noticed that at slow shutter speeds the electronic first shutter actually results in blurrier shots than with the normal loud shutter. No idea why this is, but I noticed the same thing on the Sony a57. Weird!
_________________
Graham - Moderator
Shooter of choice: Fujifilm X-T20 with M42, PB and C/Y lenses
See my Flickr photos at http://www.flickr.com/photos/manualfocus-g |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 15685
Expire: 2014-01-07
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
| tromboads wrote: |
cant keep everyone happy all of the time. So now they are too small and light there mirrors are so big they go BANG!
Its a Pentax ME Super all over again
Something about the right tool for the... bah what does it matter |
Yeah, another old truism 'only a bad workman blames his tools'...
There are no bad cameras, only bad shooters.
Blur this, shake that, ever heard of a tripod? lol
_________________
I don't care who designed it, who made it or what country it comes from - I just enjoy using it! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
Search
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
