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Shooting style by geographic region
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do these fit in with the style? Taken with the Primplan 1.9/58 (my latest toy and one I bought for the OOF areas) For a little while now I have tried to match the foreground interest with background interest (sometimes I get it right sometimes I don't) For me its like a painting you try and get the balance of the whole image....using the tools of the trade (camera and lens) and learning to see the image (training the eye).

The sharpness is not here on the main flower (I would liked it too have been a little shaper but there was a slight wind),but I find I like the bubble background a lot more than the front flower.








PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Call me slow, I still cannot identify the styles by looking at the photos.

I do understand the composition explained by Calvin, regarding intended white spaces.

What I see is the distraction from main subject to busy bokeh from most photos, and very few (of busy bokeh) contribute to enhance the main subject. Sometimes it's better to left as white spaces. Finding a case to display a 'weird' bokeh in a photo and do it well is hard. Often I found myself to select one of main subject: either the busy bokeh and fill the frame with it, or just simple main subject. I am ok to left the rest as white space.

Look at the paintings from Asia, they are often drawing by ink on paper, with few colors and gray gradients, and still they are well balanced. For me, if a busy bokeh can contribute to the balance of the photo, then use it, otherwise they are just distraction.

What I feel balanced and good from the later are:
- Mo's 1st photo
- Olivier's 2nd photo
- vanylapep's 1st photo, I wish the butterfly wings could be much sharper.

Often I am just listen to the inner voice and not aware of the style when I am shooting.
In difficult cases, I am asking myself: what is unique of this photo? would I keep it? can it be better technically, composition, colors, feeling/communication...?

I just try to understand the definition/samples of the styles.


PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
@kuuan
Photo-graphy can be abstract or realism depend on what purpose of photographer.


yes! or in other words, sharpness in photography is a possibility but by no means a must

calvin83 wrote:

Don Hong-Oai photos are classic oriental style which you found in the old Chinese paintings. Those photos show poetic quality of the scene. The empty space are intentionally leave blank to give the space for reader to think.

I am very happy that you can understand my purpose on #3 and #4. Flare is an important element in #3. It give another dimension to the photos by separate the trees on the left with the washed color. In #4, you can image there is a dragon on the right and the lit cloud in the bottom left are the fire breathes of the dragon. It looks like the dragon is going to burn the city with its fire breathes. I will consider #4 is have more quality of the classic oriental style because it have the elements of 'leave blank' and it is more thought provoking.


I am happy that I could see your intention. Though I understand why others may be surprised the reasons why you chose them seemed quite obvious to me.
ha, I had not seen the dragon in the sky, nice one Wink

calvin83 wrote:

@others
Most of us will pay attention to the subject but we may overlook the background sometimes . The relation of the subject and the background is very important in oriental style. The photos will become even more interesting if we can find the interactions(e.g. #4 of my Picon 135mm).


woodrim speaks of balance and that a too prominent bokeh could be distracting from the 'main' subject. I believe that balance is very important here and there but that the "Western" idea of balance may be quite different to the "Oriental" idea. 'Oriental balance' imo includes deliberate 'natural imperfection', it won't be obvious, never glaring but hidden and it reveals itself as a feeling or through atmosphere, not through analysis. Spontaneity, originality, straightforward, unselfconscious, modesty, intimacy are other terms which for me define "Oriental Style" ( I came up with most of these terms checking the Wikipedia articles on 'Wabi-sabi' and 'Iki', two important terms in Japanese Art and aesthetics )


Pen-F Zuiko 1.5/60 on NEX5N


Takumar 2/58 on Pentax K-x


PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hoanpham wrote:

What I feel balanced and good from the later are:
- Mo's 1st photo
- Olivier's 2nd photo
- vanylapep's 1st photo, I wish the butterfly wings could be much sharper.


Thanks for mentioning my photo Razz I got lucky with that one. The photo was taken on a 50mm at F1.8 at very close focus (photo is not cropped) so it was not quite possible to have the butterfly fully sharp unless i stopped down. I wish the white blurry flower in front of the butterfly was not there.. it's kind of distracting and hiding the butterfly. Anyone can photoshop it out Razz


PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
@kuuan.
Both photos you posted are good example on harmony of the elements in the photo. The flare, the bokeh and the subjects are not alone but relates to each other. As I understand, Wabi-sabi is related to flawed beauty. Like Zen, it can only be understand use our heart.


PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
Like Zen, it can only be understand use our heart.


And since we may have different values in our hearts, different appreciation.

I want to thank all who are participating in this thread, whether to learn or to contribute information. I think I have learned more about how people appreciate different things within a photo more than just how to accomplish a particular style. I am very happy studying the styles as well as understanding the viewpoints, even if I don't share in the appreciation.

Photography is more diverse than any one style and a well rounded photographer will understand this. I very much like most of the Oriental style and will try to sharpen my approach when taking those types of photos. If some day I can make the most of any given setting by choosing from an assortment of photographic styles, I will be all the more happy with my progress.

I'd like to continue this exercise not just for myself, but for others to learn and broaden their knowledge. I like the discussions and debates as much as the pictures. And I want people to know that I appreciate criticism as much as compliments, although I believe more is to be learned from criticism.


PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice topic, thanks Attila and woodrim for this.
I haven't shot much lately, 'coz ashes form vulcano erruption in my entire city.
Thank God, it was heavy rain at last weekend.
Kern Palliard Switar 25/1,4


PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
@kuuan.
Both photos you posted are good example on harmony of the elements in the photo. The flare, the bokeh and the subjects are not alone but relates to each other. As I understand, Wabi-sabi is related to flawed beauty. Like Zen, it can only be understand use our heart.


Attila, who created the term "Oriental Style", might not have had these thoughts in mind. But a portraits taken with a tele lens wide open with circular highlights in the background imo doesn't necessarily make it "Oriental Style", therefore I hope that our thoughts explore some interesting points.

Look at a Japanese stone garden, a rectangular field filled up with gravel and a few rocks, nothing else. Sitting in such a garden one feels awe as if enjoying grand nature, one feels the mountains, rivers, one may even feel as if listening to sounds of wind and water. Actually the garden isn't 'natural' at all but 100% 'artificial', man made. The placement of the few rocks in gravel and their interaction must represent the essence of nature in a way that it completely tricks us, eclipses our intellect and make us feel.

In "Oriental Style" elements interact to create an emotional appeal that may take us beyond the seen.
Often these are dreamy portraits, can be joyful pics full of life, Don Hong-Oai places people in nature to makes them an integral, harmonious part, modern Chinese and Japanese photographers may place a subject in urban environs to convey a feeling of alienation.

samples of a few flickr contacts: ( I didn't ask for permission, only small sizes with links or links only )


see: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoangtu_romano_tqn/6423181991/sizes/l/in/faves-kuuan/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/haoz/7260549914/sizes/l/in/faves-kuuan/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gzi24/4807813890/sizes/l/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gzi24/4273432328/sizes/z/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gzi24/4275768948/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/8858644@N02/4442917773/sizes/o/in/faves-kuuan/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/8858644@N02/10625196244/sizes/h/in/photostream/


PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:

Look at a Japanese stone garden, a rectangular field filled up with gravel and a few rocks, nothing else. Sitting in such a garden one feels awe as if enjoying grand nature, one feels the mountains, rivers, one may even feel as if listening to sounds of wind and water.


Oh no, now we have to be poetic too? Shocked


PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:

Attila, who created the term "Oriental Style", might not have had these thoughts in mind. But a portraits taken with a tele lens wide open with circular highlights in the background imo doesn't necessarily make it "Oriental Style", therefore I hope that our thoughts explore some interesting points.


Yes, but when Attila coined the term, he had a specific style and effect in mind. However, since this thread was dedicated to discussing it, a transition to a broader understanding is developing. I think that's okay, but also keep in mind that "Oriental style", as coined, is more specific, so perhaps it should be a sub category of another descriptor, left for another to coin.


PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
calvin83 wrote:
@kuuan.
Both photos you posted are good example on harmony of the elements in the photo. The flare, the bokeh and the subjects are not alone but relates to each other. As I understand, Wabi-sabi is related to flawed beauty. Like Zen, it can only be understand use our heart.


Attila, who created the term "Oriental Style", might not have had these thoughts in mind. But a portraits taken with a tele lens wide open with circular highlights in the background imo doesn't necessarily make it "Oriental Style", therefore I hope that our thoughts explore some interesting points.

Look at a Japanese stone garden, a rectangular field filled up with gravel and a few rocks, nothing else. Sitting in such a garden one feels awe as if enjoying grand nature, one feels the mountains, rivers, one may even feel as if listening to sounds of wind and water. Actually the garden isn't 'natural' at all but 100% 'artificial', man made. The placement of the few rocks in gravel and their interaction must represent the essence of nature in a way that it completely tricks us, eclipses our intellect and make us feel.

In "Oriental Style" elements interact to create an emotional appeal that may take us beyond the seen.
Often these are dreamy portraits, can be joyful pics full of life, Don Hong-Oai places people in nature to makes them an integral, harmonious part, modern Chinese and Japanese photographers may place a subject in urban environs to convey a feeling of alienation.

The style Attila refers are one of the poplar style on some of the photographer here and we have other style follow the old Oriental

The design of the garden in Ancient Egypt, Western Asia and China/Japan are very different. Unlike Ancient Egypt, Western Asia, we do not shape the natural to make them follow a certain order but we use the plants, rocks, pools and small hills to simulate unordered natural scenes.

We can open another thread to talk about how the elements interacts will give bring the photos to another level that provoke the emotion of the reader. My English is pretty limited but I will participle in the discussion.

@woodrim
OK. We won't go to far or this will be an endless thread.


PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
yes Woodrim and Calvin you are right, certainly my exploration has strode far away from Attila's meaning of "Oriental Style".
However the thread's title says: "shooting style by geographic region" and Calvin's link to the photos that look like ink paintings but so very much unlike Attila's samples as well as his own samples #3 and #4 really called for an explanation. Hopefully my attempts makes one or the other reader more aware of the use of 'empty spaces' and 'lack of information' as e.g. created when shooting against light, or else widens views.

Woodrim no need for you or anyone else to be poetic. 'Poetic' may be a good term to describe some of Asian photography though! Anyway please mind that Calvin, as far fetched as it may seem, recognizes the concept as exemplified by a Japanese stone Garden. Thank you Calvin, I'd much appreciate any further input or just link from your side.

Taking wide open pics of model trains and toys full with circular highlights, I believe, more than anything else simply is having fun with and showing ( off ) exotic gear using collectible objects that have many reflections. Being playful may be another sign of modern Asian photography Wink


PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kuuan. Thank you very much joining the discussion. May be you can open another thread here for taking about the blank/vacant space.

kuuan wrote:

Taking wide open pics of model trains and toys full with circular highlights, I believe, more than anything else simply is having fun with and showing ( off ) exotic gear using collectible objects that have many reflections. Being playful may be another sign of modern Asian photography Wink

Don't tell this secret to the others! Wink


PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kuuan and Calvin: I thought it worth mention that the thread has expanded beyond the original definition, but I am very happy with it going in that direction since this will now document the broader subject in a single thread. I personally would like to see it continue, regardless of what we decide to call the style, and without opening another topic.

While this topic will include lenses because of their contribution to effect, it is well beyond mere equipment talk. There is much more learning opportunity to which I look forward.


PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
Kuuan. Thank you very much joining the discussion. May be you can open another thread here for taking about the blank/vacant space.


thank you Calvin, happy to know.
hu, Buddhists, Taoists, Zen and other philosophers have elaborated on empty space and art has been using it's principles since many, many centuries. I am no scholar, saying anything meaningful is an insurmountable task but also irresistible, I sure must try but please, please help me along, if here or in a new thread.

calvin83 wrote:

kuuan wrote:

Taking wide open pics of model trains and toys full with circular highlights, I believe, more than anything else simply is having fun with and showing ( off ) exotic gear using collectible objects that have many reflections. Being playful may be another sign of modern Asian photography Wink

Don't tell this secret to the others! Wink


don't worry, it's too obvious to be taken serious Wink

best greetings, andreas


PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
Kuuan and Calvin: I thought it worth mention that the thread has expanded beyond the original definition, but I am very happy with it going in that direction since this will now document the broader subject in a single thread. I personally would like to see it continue, regardless of what we decide to call the style, and without opening another topic.

While this topic will include lenses because of their contribution to effect, it is well beyond mere equipment talk. There is much more learning opportunity to which I look forward.


Woodrim if you are really interested you may have to dive a bit into eastern thought. In case you less familiar with it possibly first of all check the wikipedia article on 'Sunyata", the original Sanskrit term of 'emptiness' which consequently has been a central concept of eastern thought and art:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81

Philosophers have written many books, I am no scholar, anything I say must be an utter failure: Emptiness isn't 'nothingness' nor a space of 'lacking'. Emptiness is the latent form, the potentiality of all existence, it's rise depends on emptiness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da
and furthermore: Emptiness as an ‘empty space’ is profound and infinite. It is not accumulated by definiteness. It is the ‘space of innerness, the ‘space of spirit’ and the ‘space of thinking’ of human beings, where the unknown mysterious power exists ( taken from: http://aut.researchgateway.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10292/483/ZhaoY.pdf?sequence=6 )

A "The Synthesis of Chinese Landscape Painting and Photography": http://www.luminous-landscape.com/the_synthesis_of_chinese_landscape_painting_and_photography.shtml
An article on "On Chinese Landscape Painting and Japanese Gardens": http://robertketchell.blogspot.com/2013/10/on-chinese-landscape-painting-and_9.html

regards, andreas


PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Andreas. My strength in Systems Thinking will help in describing concepts and how they related to others. I also read some books about Buddhism but I almost forget the concepts. We do not need to go in-depth in Buddhists, Taoists, Zen but focus only on some basic concepts and their relations. Give some blank space in the mind is better than fill it full.

I think we will need to get some information, samples in preparation. Then we can discuss where to start with. We will also need to ask if other member(especially those who have lived in the Orient) want to join our dialogue.

P.S. I have started learning how to use empty space in my photos.

Last edited by calvin83 on Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Calvin I was afraid that whatever i was able to say rather was amounting obstacles. You are my savior, please clean the table and put the dishes Smile


PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
...whatever i was able to say rather was amounting obstacles...


?????????????


PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
Calvin I was afraid that whatever i was able to say rather was amounting obstacles. You are my savior, please clean the table and put the dishes Smile

Andreas. Just cross the bridge when we come to it. Wink


PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
kuuan wrote:
...whatever i was able to say rather was amounting obstacles...


?????????????


sorry, hm, you see I did it again.

what I meant, as I see it, was referring to a dilemma:
to get an understanding of the concept of emptiness in eastern thought and art one 'may' have to study a lot first, while doing that one will encounter many further questions which, at least in the beginning, easily takes one further away from an understanding.
getting a grasp of it is a matter of personal perception and feeling, ultimately it cannot conclusively be explained by words, they even may become obstacles that have to be overcome

Calvin's advice "Give some blank space in the mind is better than fill it full. " is in itself part of eastern thought and a great advice specially for getting in tune for developing an understanding of 'emptiness' or 'blank space'.


PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
woodrim wrote:
kuuan wrote:
...whatever i was able to say rather was amounting obstacles...


?????????????


sorry, hm, you see I did it again.

what I meant, as I see it, was referring to a dilemma:
to get an understanding of the concept of emptiness in eastern thought and art one 'may' have to study a lot first, while doing that one will encounter many further questions which, at least in the beginning, easily takes one further away from an understanding.
getting a grasp of it is a matter of personal perception and feeling, ultimately it cannot conclusively be explained by words, they even may become obstacles that have to be overcome

Calvin's advice "Give some blank space in the mind is better than fill it full. " is in itself part of eastern thought and a great advice specially for getting in tune for developing an understanding of 'emptiness' or 'blank space'.


While there are primarily three or four of us participating in this thread, I hope others are finding interest in it. For me, it has become a curiosity with the meaning now beyond wacky bokeh. I would like to understand this better, and although I'd also like to appreciate it better, I may not. I'm not looking to change my shooting style so much as broaden my knowledge and capabilities. My way of learning is to at times challenge what I am seeing. When I challenge or critique, I am hopefully going to receive a response that helps me understand another perspective. I do now understand more about the two earlier photos I criticized, even if I do not fully appreciate them. In the end, I or anyone else may or may not develop a significant personal interest or appreciation for some of the perspectives, but hopefully a better understanding. During this exchange, I am likely to share my own attempts at what I think I'm learning. Even if I don't continue to pursue the style of photography, hopefully I'll have learned.

I think criticism is very helpful in learning, regardless of direction, as long as it is not delivered as as personal. When we put up a photo it is not part of us or who we are, just a demonstration of something we may like. I have had plenty of experience with certain of my pictures not being seen as I see them. Such is life. On the other hand, by the criticism I received, I have at times learned how to make them better. I can't remember ever taking personal offense to photographic criticism, and I promise I won't here or elsewhere in these forums. So I would ask that as we continue our exchanges, please feel free to comment as you wish. In turn, I will comment as I see something and ask that you understand that is both my way of being helpful (if I have offered a suggestion) and my way of learning.

With this understanding, if the others here do not disagree, I would like to, and am looking forward to posting images that are my interpretations of what I have learned in this thread, whether accurate or not, and I look forward to all responses.

Fair?


PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i am reading, every post.
interesting info here, but for me it just feel natural and i cannot identify when i am using oriental style or not.
also white space or black space, or blanc with intention. i did read oriental arts while young, but also visit western art museums whenever i can. seeing things, exploit the lights/scenes - they all be a part of being playful when framing a photo.

please keep posting.


PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Close or no cigar?



PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
No idea what is the intention of the last photo (!)
Nice beach.
3 main objects: human, ship, bird, and thebwhole scene. The bird looks like a dust spot.
Can i have some explaination please.
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