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Shooting style by geographic region
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1. I want to know what are your feeling/intention before I share how I think.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hoanpham wrote:
i am reading, every post.
interesting info here, but for me it just feel natural and i cannot identify when i am using oriental style or not.
also white space or black space, or blanc with intention. i did read oriental arts while young, but also visit western art museums whenever i can. seeing things, exploit the lights/scenes - they all be a part of being playful when framing a photo.

please keep posting.


feeling natural, being playful, sometimes including blank space with intention..sounds complete to me, but maybe some serious artist may disagree??


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:


While there are primarily three or four of us participating in this thread, I hope others are finding interest in it. For me, it has become a curiosity with the meaning now beyond wacky bokeh. I would like to understand this better, and although I'd also like to appreciate it better, I may not. ........
...........
....With this understanding, if the others here do not disagree, I would like to, and am looking forward to posting images that are my interpretations of what I have learned in this thread, whether accurate or not, and I look forward to all responses.

Fair?


not just fair, but great that you take on the journey, I am trying too.

I believe that the main point very clearly had been made already:

calvin83 wrote:
mobiusone wrote:
I believe there have been studies where researchers tracked the eye movement of Western and Eastern people as they looked at several paintings, photographs, and other images. Westerners consistently focused on the central and foreground subjects, while Easterners consistently gave equal weight to the entire picture, focusing on background elements far more than Westerners had.

This can be noted when comparing art made in Japan, China, etc. against European art, especially earlier works (as in later times they may have influenced each other). Maybe in photography, many Easterners feel like the background needs to be nearly as interesting as the subject, so having interesting bokeh is important.

Welcome!

I agrees with you. There is a different on how we see the paintings and photographs etc. The way we see have significant influence on the style of our work.


.........by the way, most welcome to the forum mobiusone. I hope we will read and see more from you soon!

Trying to sum up quite some google search results of these last few days I'd say that 'emptiness' in eastern thought as well as classical Chinese Art is not perceived as a 'lack of content' as most likely perceived in the west but in the contrary as a 'fullness', or at least as the 'matrix' for all possibilities.
This makes me remind the 'color theory' which says that 'white' contains the full spectrum while any other color, which is necessary for any shape to 'appear', only becomes visible if portions of the full spectrum are missing.
All defined shapes depend on the void and only appear by way of excluding elements of the 'fullness' of the 'void'. 'Solids' give hints to where the picture wants to take us which ultimately is found by a free mind appreciating and roaming in the void.

maybe describing "Oriental Style" for a western mind, to some extent, simply could be "less is more"? if so, can this help to reconcile the idea of "Oriental Style" as originally put forward by Attila and the later talk about "emptiness" in classic Oriental Art?


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hoanpham wrote:
No idea what is the intention of the last photo (!)
Nice beach.
3 main objects: human, ship, bird, and thebwhole scene. The bird looks like a dust spot.
Can i have some explaination please.


calvin83 wrote:
+1. I want to know what are your feeling/intention before I share how I think.


If I have to explain a photo before it can be appreciated, then it and I have failed. I'll do some reading and try again.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim. You do need to explain it but let us know how you feel when you look at your photo.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calvin: Honestly, I have no emotion toward the photo. I was attempting empty space and wondering if it was not a proper representation of empty space I might hear why. I need to read.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
Calvin: Honestly, I have no emotion toward the photo. I was attempting empty space and wondering if it was not a proper representation of empty space I might hear why. I need to read.

I think this is a good minimalist photography. It may not not be in the Oriental style we have mentioned IMHO. I will try to explain more about the concept of empty space after I finish reading some of the material in my hand. In the meantime, have a look at Dr. RawheaD's photos http://forum.mflenses.com/time-a-k-a-my-favorite-shot-from-2013-t64848.html#1375723 .


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin83 wrote:
...have a look at Dr. RawheaD's photos http://forum.mflenses.com/time-a-k-a-my-favorite-shot-from-2013-t64848.html#1375723 .


Love them. Taking it in.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
calvin83 wrote:
...have a look at Dr. RawheaD's photos http://forum.mflenses.com/time-a-k-a-my-favorite-shot-from-2013-t64848.html#1375723 .


Love them. Taking it in.

+1. The last photo from that link is awesome Shocked


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read some about wabi sabi and there is an aspect that appeals to me very much. To see an object or place, or even a person with age and imperfection and wonder about its journey through time. This is how I understand wabi sabi. I have photographed may things that appeal to me in this way. I will offer some examples that come to mind, even if not my best ones.













These were places or things that impressed me as having a long history and a lost purpose. Whether the door with numerous repairs or a window deteriorating. A railing post from a school for "freed Negros" which had been painted many times until there was no more interest. How many of the people there handled this post over how many years? The general store in a small village that has long closed and is being reclaimed by nature. Looking at the interior of a once thriving fish processing plant; now abandoned and at the mercy of the elements. And finally, the church wall from a ruins where for two centuries the brick and oyster shell construction held solid and served its members well.

Each one of these photos show the changing of values, ravages of time, and the forgotten memories.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can these consider oriental style?

Click for a larger view. I try to keep them small by default to not loosing the discussion context.

#1. Tamron 28-75/2.8 @75mm @f5.6


#2. Tamron 28-75/2.8 @75mm @f5.6


#3. Pentax FA50/1.4 @f3.5


They are taken by AF lenses. I needed to be quick.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

these photos by RawheaD are great, thank you Cavlin!

oh Woodrim, you read about Wabi Sabi and beautiful photos! Wabi Sabi also fascinates me and I try to get some understanding of it. Still could not tell how well your photos represent the concept, I think they do but wonder if 'their purpose long being lost' might be a something that goes a bit against it. btw. I thought of my second flower shot I showed earlier ( page 6 ) of being an example, although, for it not containing man made objects again I may be wrong.
If you have not yet read the article on Shibui you may find that interesting too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibui and probably also, for it's connection to 'emptiness', the concept of Ma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_%28negative_space%29 ( if this has not been obvious, I am not Asian nor a scholar, just an interested dilettante. I have spent very little time in China, more in Japan and have had a little bit of exposure to Japanese arts and ideas but hardly to Chinese. )


PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a good website about "iki". I have been reading the MA thesis by YAMAMOTO Yuji this afternoon.
http://yuji.cosmoshouse.com/works/papers/index.htm


PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this article on Empty Space. I suggest read it before we go on. I will add more details the article have not gone though after I finish organizing my data.
http://www.heweimin.org/Texts/mystery_of_empty_space.pdf


PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not fond of empty space much, those shoots are stunning Woodrim!


PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Attila. But are they fair representations of wabi sabi thought? kuuan say maybe no, but I had hoped for more feedback. My attempt at open space seems more minimalistic, which apparently is different from open space. I wonder if open space is more than just what is in the photo, but what is implied to be outside the boundaries of the photo. In any case, I'm trying and I hope others are learning from my failures.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No idea, honestly no matter too, until pictures are nice, top artists often make craps in western world , I have no much respect about them. I hope Asia is different, I don't much about their top artists.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Attila: I am still very interested in your original bokeh style and will be pursuing it, but differently than before. I will be paying more attention to subject within the framing.


PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mine ? I think I did do what I could LOL, now I try to improve , learn from samples and use them.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mostly I prefer Attila's portraits when he takes them in his "Oriental Style", as compared to those he takes in "Western Style". Often they look 'lighter', 'more fun', but sure that depends on the expression, some expressions fit better with "Western style"

thank you very much Calvin for your last link, good read!
quotes: "in Chinese calligraphy empty space is named designing the white', and: "Without qi empty space cannot be differentiated from blank space. ..qi, a metaphysical concept of a cosmic power. ...has been considered as the principle of life in painting, and if qi is lacking, a painting will appear lifeless. Qi comes from an artists inner self, it is a result of the interaction between the artist and the object. Empty space in a painting is where qi dwells or flows.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(The following is my understanding on Empty space with the information on articles/books I have read these days. It is only a rough introduction of empty space.)

Empty space/Blank-leaving (留白) is an elements Chinese traditional aesthetics. In Chinese painting, it refers to the unoccupied/blank space in the painting. Empty space can also applied to literature, music and other aspects but I will focus only on Chinese landscape painting "mountains and water(山水).

One of the most accepted origin of blank-leaving comes from o Tao Te Ching(道德經)written by Laozi(老子), a philosopherand poet of ancient China. Here are some of the extracts related to Being/Have(有) and non-being/Lack(冇):

Quote:
Chapter 2
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Chapter 11
We join spokes together in a wheel,
but it is the center hole
that makes the wagon move.

We shape clay into a pot,
but it is the emptiness inside
that holds whatever we want.

We hammer wood for a house,
but it is the inner space
that makes it livable.

We work with being,
but non-being is what we use.


Chapter 40
Return is the movement of the Tao.
Yielding is the way of the Tao.

All things are born of being.
Being is born of non-being.


Quote from a translation by S. Mitchell http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

From the above quotations, we can assume that being is a proper subset of non-being. They coexist and create each other.

Let us going back to Chinese landscape painting. The non-empty space where ink exists considered as Being and the blank-leaving where ink not-exits is considered as Non-being. Being is the part where substantial scene located and non-being (empty space) is part where the insubstantial scene located. The readers have to use their imagination to see the invisible scene in hidden in the empty space. Most of the time, the empty space in landscape painting are sky, cloud and water etc. depend on the placement and appearance of solid objects.

On the other side, the empty space also contains qi (氣) or energy. Empty space is a functional space to allow the dwell or movement of qi. In ancient Chinese, qi is described as life force which is possessed by all living things. With the understanding of essences from the objects, the artist use the skilled learned with brush and inks to give sprite to the objects during painting. Qi can move within the objects and goes to the surroundings. If qi is moving with rhythm around the objects, they will become lively although they do not look like real objects.

Qi does appear on other types of Chinese painting too. Can you figure how the qi flows in the following painting Homeward Oxherds in Wind and Rain, Li Di (fl. 1162-1224), Song dynasty
http://www.npm.gov.tw/exh97/masterpiece/html/c_30.html

and this 楓鷹雉雞圖 by Li Di, , Song dynasty
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xdanger/34028117/


PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="calvin83"]
Quote:
[i]Chapter 2
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.


We say "everything is relative".

calvin83 wrote:
Can you figure how the qi flows in the following painting Homeward Oxherds in Wind and Rain, Li Di (fl. 1162-1224), Song dynasty
http://www.npm.gov.tw/exh97/masterpiece/html/c_30.html


No.


PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodrim wrote:
calvin83 wrote:

Quote:
[i]Chapter 2
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.


We say "everything is relative".


Yes, "everything is relative". There are no stickers pasted on the things. It is us give different labels to different things. Wink


PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vincent van Gogh once wrote in a letter to his brother Theo: "All my work is based to some extent on Japanese art.."
"Japonaiserie" is the term he used for the influence of Japanese art: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japonaiserie_%28Van_Gogh%29


PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin83 wrote:
(The following is my understanding on Empty space with the information on articles/books I have read these days. It is only a rough introduction of empty space.)

Empty space/Blank-leaving (留白) is an elements Chinese traditional aesthetics. In Chinese painting, it refers to the unoccupied/blank space in the painting. Empty space can also applied to literature, music and other aspects but I will focus only on Chinese landscape painting "mountains and water(山水).

One of the most accepted origin of blank-leaving comes from o Tao Te Ching(道德經)written by Laozi(老子), a philosopherand poet of ancient China. Here are some of the extracts related to Being/Have(有) and non-being/Lack(冇):

Quote:
Chapter 2
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Chapter 11
We join spokes together in a wheel,
but it is the center hole
that makes the wagon move.

We shape clay into a pot,
but it is the emptiness inside
that holds whatever we want.

We hammer wood for a house,
but it is the inner space
that makes it livable.

We work with being,
but non-being is what we use.


Chapter 40
Return is the movement of the Tao.
Yielding is the way of the Tao.

All things are born of being.
Being is born of non-being.


Quote from a translation by S. Mitchell http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

From the above quotations, we can assume that being is a proper subset of non-being. They coexist and create each other.

Let us going back to Chinese landscape painting. The non-empty space where ink exists considered as Being and the blank-leaving where ink not-exits is considered as Non-being. Being is the part where substantial scene located and non-being (empty space) is part where the insubstantial scene located. The readers have to use their imagination to see the invisible scene in hidden in the empty space. Most of the time, the empty space in landscape painting are sky, cloud and water etc. depend on the placement and appearance of solid objects.

On the other side, the empty space also contains qi (氣) or energy. Empty space is a functional space to allow the dwell or movement of qi. In ancient Chinese, qi is described as life force which is possessed by all living things. With the understanding of essences from the objects, the artist use the skilled learned with brush and inks to give sprite to the objects during painting. Qi can move within the objects and goes to the surroundings. If qi is moving with rhythm around the objects, they will become lively although they do not look like real objects.

Qi does appear on other types of Chinese painting too. Can you figure how the qi flows in the following painting Homeward Oxherds in Wind and Rain, Li Di (fl. 1162-1224), Song dynasty
http://www.npm.gov.tw/exh97/masterpiece/html/c_30.html

and this 楓鷹雉雞圖 by Li Di, , Song dynasty
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xdanger/34028117/


thank you very much Calvin for your truly great exposition!
and the beautiful sample