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Pentax and full frame
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Pentax and full frame Reply with quote
Hi here

That's quite a title eh ?

Ok, it's just to say , i've been with friends yesterday in Paris photo fair. One of them wanted to test a FF Pentax, and i said there were none, yet : )

And ( here's the sad part ) he asked the Pentax ppl try a 645 mid format , and chatting with them asked for FF, the response was that there will be none, never.

the reason given was that the opponents doing FF are too advanced, and Pentax didn't planned this kind of camera system, and as you may know it takes years to develop

I am quite disseapointed, cos their camera bodies are great, so a FF would have been kinda cool too.

That's for the info , good night : )


PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hexi wrote:
the reason given was that the opponents doing FF are too advanced, and Pentax didn't planned this kind of camera system, and as you may know it takes years to develop

not a good reason, Pentax don't need to develop a sensor
if they sell enough K5, they will make a KF


PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Who makes the sensor for the K5?


PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Pentax and full frame Reply with quote
hexi wrote:
asked for FF, the response was that there will be none, never.

the reason given was that the opponents doing FF are too advanced


My response to him would have been "Never say 'never.'" Never is a very, very long time and when people use it, I don't believe them because "never" is beyond anyone's conception. It is negative infinity.

Chances are almost a certainty that at some point in time Pentax will develop a FF equivalent camera once the price of the sensors has dropped to the level where it would be stupid not to produce one. Or some other sea change will occur such that FF becomes irrelevant. But the way things are now, FF has just too many advantages in terms of quality for it not to be considered eventually.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi,

poilu wrote:
not a good reason, Pentax don't need to develop a sensor
if they sell enough K5, they will make a KF


Well, Pentax should develop FF lenses, too ... AFAIK, the only FF lenses in the Pentax catalog are the three FA-Limited (31, 43 and 77, which cost $$$) and the D-FA 100 macro ... A bit too short, when compared to the Canon or Nikon catalogs ...


Orio wrote:
Who makes the sensor for the K5?


Sony, it's the new back-lighted low-noise CMOS 16MP ...


Cheers


PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It would be important to know if Pentax is making the sensors for their current cameras or if they outsourced them.

If they make the sensors, then the reply can make sense: it surely costs a lot of money to develop a sensor and while in APS-C they already made the biginvestment, and now they are perfectioning it and capitalizing it, to start the thing anew for full frame might be a too big risk in this moment of financial depression.

If instead they outsource the sensors, then the reply does not make sense anymore - in that case I think their decision would be of pure marketing reasons. We have to acknowledge that we are a really small minority here, most buyers of Pentax cameras don't give a damn about manual focus lenses, and don't care if they obtain a 30mm lens result with a real 30mm lens or with a 20mm lens. They just want cameras that produce great images with today's AF lenses, and Pentax delivers them. So why should they care about full frame?


PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
indianadinos wrote:

Sony, it's the new back-lighted low-noise CMOS 16MP ...
Cheers


In this case we should know what is behind the curtains. If I am informed correctly, Sony also provides sensors for the Nikon cameras. But we don't know the licenses and the limitations. Maybe Nikon has paid for exclusivity for some time period, so Sony would not be allowed to give the same sensors to Pentax. Maybe Pentax has an exclusivity with Sony for the APS-C format and Nikon for the full frame format. We just don't know these details, so it's risky to make any speculations.


PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
indianadinos wrote:

Orio wrote:
Who makes the sensor for the K5?

Sony, it's the new back-lighted low-noise CMOS 16MP ...


As far as I know there are *no* backlit APS-C sensors. Even Sony explained that it's not useful to have backlit APS-C sensors, these were designed with phone cams etc. in mind.

Having said that: Pentax has a huge problem now. The K-5 is so good that it can hardly be improved on the IQ side. As I see it they cannot dismiss a future FF system if it's about IQ they're after.


PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:

In this case we should know what is behind the curtains. If I am informed correctly, Sony also provides sensors for the Nikon cameras.


Yes, the K5 sensor is the same of the Nikon D7000 and, if i remember well, of another DSLR (sorry, cannot remember which one) ...


PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
spot wrote:
Pentax has a huge problem now. The K-5 is so good that it can hardly be improved on the IQ side

some say that the K-5 use tricks behind the magics Rolling Eyes

Oleg wrote:
Sorry for not sharing all that hype about fascinating DR results of the K-5 but its nothing more than simple mathematical trick


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:
spot wrote:
Pentax has a huge problem now. The K-5 is so good that it can hardly be improved on the IQ side

some say that the K-5 use tricks behind the magics Rolling Eyes

Oleg wrote:
Sorry for not sharing all that hype about fascinating DR results of the K-5 but its nothing more than simple mathematical trick


If those are tricks then I'm more than happy to use them. Please wait for my own samples (in a few days) since my K-5 is expected to arrive this thursday Cool


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Every thing in a digital camera is a digital trick.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
indianadinos wrote:
Well, Pentax should develop FF lenses, too ... AFAIK, the only FF lenses in the Pentax catalog are the three FA-Limited (31, 43 and 77, which cost $$$) and the D-FA 100 macro ... A bit too short, when compared to the Canon or Nikon catalogs ...


Exactly, even if you are a Pentaxian and want a FF, you will need to sell almost all your lenses and start from the beginning. The biggest problem with people changing systems is that they have to start from the beginning. Pentax knows If they make an upgrade as hard as a system change, then they are going to lose costumers.
Why not go for the D3x or 1DsIII or 5DII then...


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Joosep wrote:
Pentax knows If they make an upgrade as hard as a system change, then they are going to lose costumers.


Why lose customers? APS-C customers are not forced to abandon their system.
I think the problem may be another, that is, with a full frame camera they would have to produce lenses for full frame, and maybe their production quantity ability is already filled with the demand for APS-C lenses. So perhaps they would need to build a new facility to make full frame lenses, and that would be a huge investment.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fortunately it seems that all lenses Pentax has been producing in the last 2 years are all full-frame compatible (tested on film by some nice chaps on Pentaxforums.com). And many of the lenses produced before that are fullframe by design (such as the DA* 55/1.4 SDM, DA* 60-250, DA* 200, DA* 300, even the newly announced and plastic DA L 35/2.4 is fullframe compatible.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some years ago I have asked a guy at a Panasonic booth when they will publish a Panasonic DSLR. And he replied that there were no plans to do so.
About half a year later they came up with the L1.

"Never?" Those guys never tell the truth... Wink


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not too many years ago, Nikon camp never think they will ever get a full frame DSLR and see where they are now.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Basically anything can happen. Look at where we are now. The 4/3 SLR system is almost dead. Canon is lagging behind (for the time being, although I'm sure they'll hit back soon). Sony is not really making good use of their own sensors (the translucent mirror is like a bad dream to me), hopefully their next ones will do better.

At this time I can easily see Pentax getting the #3 spot behind Canon and Nikon as far as worldwide DSLR sales go. But maintaining that spot will be much harder; Pentax clearly needs to show us the goods or else... Smile


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spotmatic wrote:
Canon is lagging behind (for the time being, although I'm sure they'll hit back soon).


Huhh ? What ?
5DII, 7D and 550D, now 60D.
Wouldnt say lagging behind, more like leading the way ?

I do agree with you on that pellix oops. translucent mirror.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spotmatic wrote:

If those are tricks then I'm more than happy to use them. Please wait for my own samples (in a few days) since my K-5 is expected to arrive this thursday Cool


I was made aware of this thread:

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/121337-k5-low-iso-noise-not.html

Looking forward to your test Smile I do hope that they come up with a mirrorless fullframe, that would be the way to break away from all competitions.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Joosep wrote:
Spotmatic wrote:
Canon is lagging behind (for the time being, although I'm sure they'll hit back soon).


Huhh ? What ?
5DII, 7D and 550D, now 60D.
Wouldnt say lagging behind, more like leading the way ?


Leading the way into oblivion Smile

Funny that you should mention the 60D. Friend and foe agree that the 60D is definitely a lame attempt by Canon. They could have done much better than that.

But yes, eventually Canon will overtake the rest again. They have to Smile

Quote:

I do agree with you on that pellix oops. translucent mirror.


It seems that Sony is not learning from other brands' mistakes, even the mistakes made in the 70's Laughing


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
aleksanderpolo wrote:
Spotmatic wrote:

If those are tricks then I'm more than happy to use them. Please wait for my own samples (in a few days) since my K-5 is expected to arrive this thursday Cool


I was made aware of this thread:

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/121337-k5-low-iso-noise-not.html


Indeed, the possibilities to recover from underexposed areas in the K-5 raw files is nothing short of a marvel. Where's the noise??? Surprised

Quote:

Looking forward to your test Smile I do hope that they come up with a mirrorless fullframe, that would be the way to break away from all competitions.


That's what I hope will happen. If this includes an adapter for screwdriven lenses then there are a LOT of people who will be happy! Cool


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spotmatic wrote:
Sony is not really making good use of their own sensors (the translucent mirror is like a bad dream to me), hopefully their next ones will do better.


Translucent mirror + EVF only may indeed be like a bad dream to manual focus enthusiasts like us, but we are sadly not even close to being the target audience for these cameras. Many AF-only shooters will be happy about the phase detect AF in live view, and meanwhile I know a lot of “casual shooters” who actually prefer EVF because it can preview exposure, be overlaid with info, etc.

Even the loss of light in the translucent mirror, about 2/3 of a stop, is utterly negligible to "normal" people, and even though some high ISO enthusiasts may worry about it the tested performance is pretty good.

Of course, as a Sony user I am concerned about this direction because I wouldn't want a camera without OVF and I have no use for the 10 fps continuous shooting it provides, but I have no doubt that it's a beneficial move for Sony in the consumer market and in that sense definitely a good use of their sensors (from a financial perspective).


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Arkku wrote:
Spotmatic wrote:
Sony is not really making good use of their own sensors (the translucent mirror is like a bad dream to me), hopefully their next ones will do better.


Translucent mirror + EVF only may indeed be like a bad dream to manual focus enthusiasts like us, but we are sadly not even close to being the target audience for these cameras. Many AF-only shooters will be happy about the phase detect AF in live view, and meanwhile I know a lot of “casual shooters” who actually prefer EVF because it can preview exposure, be overlaid with info, etc.

Even the loss of light in the translucent mirror, about 2/3 of a stop, is utterly negligible to "normal" people, and even though some high ISO enthusiasts may worry about it the tested performance is pretty good.

Of course, as a Sony user I am concerned about this direction because I wouldn't want a camera without OVF and I have no use for the 10 fps continuous shooting it provides, but I have no doubt that it's a beneficial move for Sony in the consumer market and in that sense definitely a good use of their sensors (from a financial perspective).

Everything you stated is correct. But in very bad situations, 1/3 of a stop wont be enough for the AF sensor. Then back to MF ?


PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Joosep wrote:

5DII, 7D and 550D, now 60D.
Wouldnt say lagging behind, more like leading the way ?


Well, the 5DII is two years old. In the last two years, sensors advanced in technology. The 7D under some respects is a more advanced camera than the 5DII. Of course the 5DII is full frame, so it's still no game for any APS-C, but still, we can't call it an up to date camera anymore.

2011 is going to be the year of 5D Mark III.
I'm curious to see what they will come up with. I hope that instead of increasing pixel count, they will work in making the current pixels cleaner. High ISO noise is the Achilles' heel of the 5D Mark II.
From a full frame camera in year 2011 I expect at least a flawless ISO 6400 performance (where for flawless you read 'free from banding'). Pixels can stay as they are, I don't need more than 21Mp.
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