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themoleman342
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
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 Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:47 pm Post subject: Helios or Biotar 58mm |
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themoleman342 wrote:
Yes, I'm sorry a topic discussing both of these lenses comes up quite often. I've never really seen this specific question however: If you have both the biotar and helios (talking older 44 and 44-2 variations), why choose one over the other?
The debate usually goes that one can pick up a helios for practically nothing (which is getting less true), the biotar commands prices higher than $100, and the helios can perform almost identically if you get a good one. All of which I agree with.
The helios and all it's various versions is without a doubt one of the best bang-for-buck lenses around. But that's usually where the discussion ends. Why not have a helios cause it's cheap?
Price completely aside, would you really choose the helios over the biotar? I'd really like to hear people opinions on this. Thanks! |
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nixland
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 577
Expire: 2012-07-29
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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nixland wrote:
I've made a short comparison thread in here :
http://forum.mflenses.com/comparison-shots-biotar-58-2-1q-and-helios-44-3-58-2-mc-t38216.html
Hope it helps 
I choose Biotar because the silver body is sexier and I like it's flare pattern more than the Helios (in this case Helios 44-3 that I have).
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FOR SALE
Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 10cm/2 || Carl Zeiss ZE Distagon 28/2 || Minolta Rokkor MD 35/1.8 || Rokkor-X MC 85/1.7 || Rokkor MD 85/1.7 || Olympus Zuiko MC Auto-W 21/2 || Olympus 100/2 || Nikon Nikkor 35/1.4 || Canon: FD 55/1.2 || Vivitar 90/2.5 Series 1 VMC || Tamron: 90/2.5 SP
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ChromaticAberration
Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 819
Location: Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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ChromaticAberration wrote:
In the end I guess most photographers will enjoy the cheer fact of owning a Zeiss piece of glass even if it is a piece of sh*t because it will fetch higher prices if one decides to sell it later on.
I own a perfectly mint copy of an Helios 44-2 but I would sell it in a blink of an eye if I could get a Biotar for "my price range" which I can't hehe
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Olivier
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 5083
Location: France
Expire: 2015-08-06
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier wrote:
I choose Helios because... Biotar hits the mirror of my 5D MkII.
CA, what is your price range ?
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ChromaticAberration
Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 819
Location: Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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ChromaticAberration wrote:
Let me put it this way, the most expensive lens I have bought cost me less than £40 and it was a very bad deal unfortunately for me.
We don't need to go very far just take a look at the prices that the original German designed lenses fetch versus the Russian copies, it is outreageous!
Most people just don't care about price-quality ratio, they want to own something, and unless you are passionate for Russian glass, russian lenses will always be "the copies" not the real stuff, no matter how well they perform.
So yeah, i would sell my Helios if I could get a pretty little silver Biotar, but my Helios cost me £6.50 (+ shipping) and Biotar's are fetching £70+ right now, ridiculous.
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themoleman342
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 2190
Location: East Coast (CT), U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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themoleman342 wrote:
This topic took the turn towards the price aspect yet again...
Thank you all for your input. |
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ChromaticAberration
Joined: 23 Dec 2010
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Location: Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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ChromaticAberration wrote:
themoleman342 take a look at the pics on that comparison.. do you think there is anything else to say? Unless someone has an outstandingly rare copy of a Biotar that outperforms the one used in that specific test by far, the Biotar is only better as an investment, not as a lens.
More food for thought:
Real life comparison
Techincal comparison
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themoleman342
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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themoleman342 wrote:
I think there is more to say.
Build quality? One person likes the biotar, another doesn't.
Flare? Two people said the Helios was better. One prefers the biotar.
Sharpness at center/corners at various apertures? That picture is too small and there's no testing procedure. Are corners really corners (used on a full-frame)?
Color rendition? Comparison give some clue of this but because of the minor variations on angle/time it's not entirely conclusive.
I just wanted some impressions without the price discussion. I thought it might be worth the post but nevermind. I concede. |
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heartcat
Joined: 31 Dec 2009
Posts: 371
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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heartcat wrote:
I know that technically you're asking people who have and have had the opportunity to use 'both' lenses, but I will say that I love my Helios and feel no need whatsoever to get a Biotar as well/instead.
Now, if someone happened to gift me one, I'm sure I'd use it as well. But even if I could pick up a Biotar as cheaply as I did my Helios, I wouldn't see the point (well except to resell it for a profit or something).
I don't love and use my Helios because it was inexpensive. I didn't 'settle' for it. I love it because of the photos it produces for me.
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themoleman342
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: |
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themoleman342 wrote:
I like that answer. That's a beautiful photo. Wow! Eyes are amazing. |
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ManualFocus-G
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
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Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:05 am Post subject: |
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ManualFocus-G wrote:
Well, they're both great lenses, but I prefer the colour rendition of my beat up Biotar over the Helios models. I don't know why it's different, maybe it's because lots of the coating on my Biotar has been rubbed off. I would happily use either in the field.
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heartcat
Joined: 31 Dec 2009
Posts: 371
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:19 am Post subject: |
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heartcat wrote:
Thank you. It's a sharp lens. I think this was taken at f/4 (it's actually a crop). I also like the colour straight out of the camera, I find my Helios photos don't need much processing.
I've gotten some great tips from some wonderful portrait photographers about getting good catchlights in the eyes and try to utilize them when I can. And my little nephew does have beautiful, shiny eyes.
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
I have Helios 44, 44-2, 44M and 44M-4. My biotar is sharper than all of them and maybe even more swirly.
BTW, only the 44-2 hits my 5Dii's mirror.
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ChromaticAberration
Joined: 23 Dec 2010
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Location: Portugal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:21 am Post subject: |
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ChromaticAberration wrote:
| themoleman342 wrote: |
Build quality? One person likes the biotar, another doesn't.
Flare? Two people said the Helios was better. One prefers the biotar.
Sharpness at center/corners at various apertures? That picture is too small and there's no testing procedure. Are corners really corners (used on a full-frame)?
Color rendition? Comparison give some clue of this but because of the minor variations on angle/time it's not entirely conclusive.
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This means that it is a very close call between the two. Looking at that last picture I cannot imagine a Biotar being sharper, that is as sharper as one can get in my opinion.
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std
Joined: 09 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:30 am Post subject: |
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std wrote:
it's Biotar for me.
Lot better in terms of build quality - a nice example of german engineering vs russian copy/paste.
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56 DIN
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Location: Germany Erbach /ODW
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| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:11 am Post subject: |
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56 DIN wrote:
have both, the black Biotar, bought from our well known greece member and 3 Helios in different outfits. For use, i prefer much more the Helios, because the Biotar is to small for my hands, what sense makes a sharper (?) lens, if you cannot handle it
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pat donnelly
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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pat donnelly wrote:
The Biotar had better quality control. The Helios may require a few purchases before a very good one comes along.
The Helios had several iterations and will exhibit different characteristics to the Biotar which ceased production. It is possible that with coatings and design changes, the Helios models have a higher quality, particularly in the centre, where digital users will be more concerned about performance.
Buy many Helios lenses as the effects may be more to your liking! They can be sold on, if not. It may take much longer to do this with the Biotars and a bad one may wipe out a lot of capital!
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 29545
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Helios or Biotar 58mm |
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Orio wrote:
| themoleman342 wrote: |
| Yes, I'm sorry a topic discussing both of these lenses comes up quite often. I've never really seen this specific question however: If you have both the biotar and helios (talking older 44 and 44-2 variations), why choose one over the other? |
Because they render differently. The Helios' optical scheme is a carbon copy of the Biotar, yet the rendered images are not equal. The main difference is in the bokeh highlights, which in the Helios images often show a hard edge, whereas in the Biotar images they're smoother (although always on the "strong" side).
One can only guess about the reason why. Of course optical scheme is a main factor, but precision of build and quality of the optical glass components are also important.
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Mos6502
Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 960
Location: Austin
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Mos6502 wrote:
I guess - why Biotar at all? What about it are you after?
I've seen some go for silly prices lately, even though they were the standard lens for the Exakta for years and not rare at all. There are also, obviously, sharper and faster lenses out there in the normal focal length. (and lenses with smoother bokeh, or probably any other qualities the Biotar has)
Considering the number of lens-less Exakta bodies showing up on ebay, I wouldn't be surprised if some unsentimental people are buying Exaktas just to turn and make a profit off of the lens.  |
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themoleman342
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 2190
Location: East Coast (CT), U.S.A.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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themoleman342 wrote:
| Quote: |
Because they render differently. The Helios' optical scheme is a carbon copy of the Biotar, yet the rendered images are not equal. The main difference is in the bokeh highlights, which in the Helios images often show a hard edge, whereas in the Biotar images they're smoother (although always on the "strong" side).
One can only guess about the reason why. Of course optical scheme is a main factor, but precision of build and quality of the optical glass components are also important. |
That's interesting. Most people would be hard pressed to see the difference. Both exhibit the infamous "swirl" oof, an effect amplified by the cat-eye highlights, but you're saying bright-edged bokeh is lessened with the biotar? |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 29545
Location: West Emilia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
| themoleman342 wrote: |
That's interesting. Most people would be hard pressed to see the difference. Both exhibit the infamous "swirl" oof, an effect amplified by the cat-eye highlights, but you're saying bright-edged bokeh is lessened with the biotar? |
That's what I noticed with my copies. When I can recover from my currently not-so-good health status, I'll try to set up a comparison set for you.
By the way, I'm not diminishing the Helios, I just report a difference that I saw.
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iangreenhalgh1
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 15679
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:02 am Post subject: |
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iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
| Orio wrote: |
| themoleman342 wrote: |
That's interesting. Most people would be hard pressed to see the difference. Both exhibit the infamous "swirl" oof, an effect amplified by the cat-eye highlights, but you're saying bright-edged bokeh is lessened with the biotar? |
That's what I noticed with my copies. When I can recover from my currently not-so-good health status, I'll try to set up a comparison set for you.
By the way, I'm not diminishing the Helios, I just report a difference that I saw. |
Hope you feel better soon Orio!
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