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Migrating from Canon to Pentax
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Migrating from Canon to Pentax Reply with quote
Hi,

I have been using MF lenses on my Canon 450d for some time now and it has elevated my enthusiasm for photography considerably. I have now a couple of M42 lenses and also some PK lenses. While collecting the information from internet, a lot from this forum too, I got a feeling that pentax dslr cameras are a little more practical for MF lenses (at least for M42 and PK mount lenses) than canon dslr cameras. Mainly the feeling originate from facts that pentax cameras have body inbuilt shake reduction and there is no need for special AF chips on adapters.

I was never seriously thinking about migrating from canon to pentax, because besides owning canon 450d I also have quite a lot of equipment for my canon (some USM lenses, old flash, triggers) and selling all for a reasonable price just didn't feel feasible. But couple of days ago I was talking to my colegue and I mentioned I would sell all my canon equipment if I could and he became interested. So now I have a chance to sell all my equipment for reasonable price.

The questions here are:

Q1 - Is it really reasonable to migrate from canon 450d to a better pentax body? I would buy used pentax body; the upper limit is around 550 euros.
Q2 - Which body should I buy? I have mention that I shoot a lot in low light conditions. I would also install focusing screen into a new body, so larger and brighter viewfinder is also important. So basically all that allows more "user friendly" use of manual lenses is important. From my current experiences I would only buy 18-55 AF kit lens. All other lenses will be manual focus.

Thank you for your answers and best regards.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had a Pentax Kx and it's a) well within your budget, both new and used, and b) a great little camera. The viewfinder is slightly smaller and darker than the K5, but it's very usable for mf especially with a custom focusing screen. If you don't wear glasses you can also fit a Pentax O-ME53 magnifying eyecup, which will make it 20% larger.

If you have decided to go the Pentax route, I guess you already know that you can only mount PK and M42 lenses, while on the Canons you can mount many other types too.

A good combo if you get a Pentax might be getting a body and the cheap DA 35/2.4, both should be within your budget and you'll have an AF lens with excellent image quality for those times when mf is not practical.

Another alternative would be to get a mirrorless body, you'll then be able to mount practically everything on your camera. If you need a viewfinder, the only cameras within your budget are used micro 4/3 bodies with internal (Panasonic) or external evf, or a Samsung NX10/11. The advantage of micro 4/3 is the bodies are slightly smaller and the Olympus ones have in-body stabilization, while the NX has a larger sensor and very good cheap AF primes.

With some hunting, you might spend half your budget on a body, and have the rest for mf and af lenses. If you pick a Samsung, the 30/2 pancake costs less than 200 new and is excellent.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ludoo wrote:
If you have decided to go the Pentax route, I guess you already know that you can only mount PK and M42 lenses, while on the Canons you can mount many other types too.


Yes, indeed, I am aware of that and it doesn’t bother me. I do have Olympus Zuiko 50mm 1.8, but it can be easily converted to PK mount.


ludoo wrote:
Another alternative would be to get a mirrorless body, you'll then be able to mount practically everything on your camera. If you need a viewfinder, the only cameras within your budget are used micro 4/3 bodies with internal (Panasonic) or external evf, or a Samsung NX10/11. The advantage of micro 4/3 is the bodies are slightly smaller and the Olympus ones have in-body stabilization, while the NX has a larger sensor and very good cheap AF primes.


It is important to me that the crop factor is smallest as possible, or at least similar to 1.6x crop factor of 450d. Considering that and my my budget, I think the APS-C system is the system I want and can afford.

Regarding Samsung NX10/11, I somehow limited myself to pentax, but I am open to other suggestions like Samsung. I also read that samsung actually has camera bodies which are basically pentax clones. I believe Samsung GX-20 is very similar to Pentax K20D.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
strudelj wrote:
It is important to me that the crop factor is smallest as possible, or at least similar to 1.6x crop factor of 450d. Considering that and my my budget, I think the APS-C system is the system I want and can afford.

Regarding Samsung NX10/11, I somehow limited myself to pentax, but I am open to other suggestions like Samsung. I also read that samsung actually has camera bodies which are basically pentax clones. I believe Samsung GX-20 is very similar to Pentax K20D.


The Samsung bodies you mention are clones of the Pentax bodies of the same era. What I was referring to are bodies in the NX line, mirrorless with an APS-C sensor.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Migrating from Canon to Pentax Reply with quote
strudelj wrote:
...I was never seriously thinking about migrating from canon to pentax, because besides owning canon 450d I also have quite a lot of equipment for my canon (some USM lenses, old flash, triggers)...

How much do you use/need AF lenses? One important thing is AF slowness and inaccuracy of Pentax bodies in comparison to Canon.
First thing I noticed when I got 5D was blazing fast AF in comparison to my Samsung GX20 and 5D isn't exactly known to have fast AF amongst Canon line-up. Now, I already sold almost all my Pentax AF lenses (except DA16-45 and FA80-200) and I plan to buy two USM Canon zooms for my AF needs.
I would suggest to buy used K10D/Samsung GX10 or K20D/GX20, which have all the good things of Pentax (in body stabilization, pentaprism viewfinder, sealed bodies, top LCD panel, LiveView) and try if it serves your needs before you sell your Canon equipment.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I made a similar move to you, from a 1000D to a K-x. The K-x really offers incredible quality for it's price. The dynamic range and high ISO performance will surprise you, this camera let me take night shots handheld which would have been impossible before.
The K-5 is even better at low light but would stretch your budget some.

The viewfinder in the K-x is also far larger than those in the low end Canons. I had a look through some in a shop recently, and was surprised how much larger it was than the viewfinder in the EOS 600D (and that's a camera that costs nearly as much as the K-5!)

Another positive of getting a Pentax is that there are some very cheap AF zooms. The FA 100-300 can be had for very little and is sharp at f8 and has pretty beautiful colour saturation and contrast, The rather more compact modern DA 50-200 also goes for well under €100 and the kit lens is not bad, certainly far better than the Canon MK1. It's worth having at least one AF lens, preferably a longer one, for when as Ludoo said "MF isn't practical".

I would agree with BRunner that the AF is slow however although found it more accurate than the entry level EOS bodies.

Although I enjoy using the SMC-M primes and find them good value for money, I've tried a lot of the cheaper M42s and want to try out lenses from different mounts which is tricky on Pentax. This is the one regret I have of moving.

So to summarise, yes it is easily possible for you to move to a better Pentax body and I'd recommend either the K-x or if you can then a K-5. As you shoot a lot in low light then I doubt that that the cameras older than the K-x would be much good for you.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Migrating from Canon to Pentax Reply with quote
strudelj wrote:

The questions here are:

Q1 - Is it really reasonable to migrate from canon 450d to a better pentax body? I would buy used pentax body; the upper limit is around 550 euros.
Q2 - Which body should I buy? I have mention that I shoot a lot in low light conditions. I would also install focusing screen into a new body, so larger and brighter viewfinder is also important. So basically all that allows more "user friendly" use of manual lenses is important. From my current experiences I would only buy 18-55 AF kit lens. All other lenses will be manual focus.


I had Canon 450D with a grip for a while, so I know what I'm talking about...

Get Pentax K-x/K-r because:

1. Much better high ISO performance (about 2 stops better than 450D)
2. In body shake reduction means that you can use 2-3 stops slower shutter speeds on static objects and it works with any lens.
3. PK-mount lenses are easier to use, no adapters or dark image on viewfinder.
4. Kit lens is excellent, better than Canon 18-55 IS.
5. You can choose the color of camera Wink
6. Less crop (1.5 vs. 1.6)
7. Easier to use than 450D and you can shoot video.


K5 would be even better but above your budget...
K10/K20/K7 are good but don't have better (than Canon 450D) high ISO performance...


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
William wrote:
The viewfinder in the K-x is also far larger than those in the low end Canons. I had a look through some in a shop recently, and was surprised how much larger it was than the viewfinder in the EOS 600D (and that's a camera that costs nearly as much as the K-5!)


I was surprised by this and double checked DPReview...they reckon the 600D and k-x viewfinder are exactly the same size. Are you sure you weren't comparing to a 1xxxD series camera?


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Really? Might have been the 550D then.

Edit: Looking it up they all seem to be the same size. It might have something to do with wearing glasses and the different rubber surrounds.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
William wrote:
The viewfinder in the K-x is also far larger than those in the low end Canons. I had a look through some in a shop recently, and was surprised how much larger it was than the viewfinder in the EOS 600D (and that's a camera that costs nearly as much as the K-5!)


I was surprised by this and double checked DPReview...they reckon the 600D and k-x viewfinder are exactly the same size. Are you sure you weren't comparing to a 1xxxD series camera?


I can confirm that Canon 450D and Pentax K-x don't have significant difference in viewfinders. And both cameras have excellent liveview for fine tuning the focus. The difference between pentaprism and pentamirror viewfinders in APS-C sized cameras is also not significant...

But Pentax ME (35mm film SLR) viewfinder is something else compared to any APS-C sized DSLR viewfinder Wink


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If the main use and goal is manual focus, then I would recommend the camera that, at equal crop factor and similar price, offers you the widest possibilities with lenses. In APS-C format, this would mean a Sony or Samsung mirrorless camera.

If instead viewfinder and range of autofocus lenses are more important than the number of available MF lenses, then I would recommend a traditional Pentax DSLR.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
If the main use and goal is manual focus, then I would recommend the camera that, at equal crop factor and similar price, offers you the widest possibilities with lenses. In APS-C format, this would mean a Sony or Samsung mirrorless camera.


If long tele lenses are not needed, Sony NEX cameras are nice and small, fun to use with tilting screen. But in bright sunlight liveview can be a problem and I would rate the image quality of Pentax K-x above Sony NEX-3/5. At least jpgs straight from the camera are way better with Pentax.

Also.. don't forget the shake reduction. 2-3 stops more in low light. Olympus mirrorless m4/3 has it, but they (Panasonic sensors) also have poor high ISO and 2X crop Sad


PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
K-x or K-r is my recommendation too
much better DR and better high ISO performance than K10D/K20D in a much smaller, imo better handling body ( the two wheels of K10D/K20D are an advantage but only when using AF lenses ), and for the money you can spend you can buy either new!
Of the two the K-r has better LCD ( and autofocus points showing in the viewfinder )


PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you aren't going to progress to the higher end Canon bodies then you are probably getting more for your money with Pentax.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Now the final step is going from Pentax to Sigma... Razz


PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a Canon 400D at present and my son has a Pentax K-x which I've used a lot. The viewfinders are very similar. Out of the two I prefer the Pentax, basically because it has much better high ISO and it just feels better quality. However I can't use my Minolta lenses on either of them! Sad

Before the London meeting recently my choice for a new camera would certainly have been a Pentax, but after trying out Carsten's Sony NEX-3 (with APS-C sensor) I'm absolutely sold on that now. The most important point for me, with long-sghted eyes, is the fabulous method of focussing in liveview, where the in-focus areas change to a bright colour. Also I can fit virtually any SLR or RF lens on it, including my Minoltas! The concern about viewing the LCD screen in bright light is a genuine one, but there is a folding plastic hood available if you need to shield it - Jes has one of these I believe.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
If the main use and goal is manual focus, then I would recommend the camera that, at equal crop factor and similar price, offers you the widest possibilities with lenses. In APS-C format, this would mean a Sony or Samsung mirrorless camera.

If instead viewfinder and range of autofocus lenses are more important than the number of available MF lenses, then I would recommend a traditional Pentax DSLR.

Absolutely agreed !


PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi, thanks for all replies. I have been away from the computer last couple of days. From your posts I see I have two options: pentax dslr or sony/samsung mirrorless ASP-C format cameras.

Again, with pentax I have two options: K20d or K-x/K-r.
From reviews I read the performance of K20d is similar to eos 450d. K20d is a little more noisier, but in return it offers a little more detail as 450d. What I like about K20d is an option of microfocus adjustment for 20 lenses. I also read that the liveview at K20d is not the best, and liveview is very important. I will come back to the issue of liveview when I will discuss the mirrorless cameras.
While reading reviews about K-x I got the feeling that this camera packs a lot of good things in an inexpensive camera body. I also got a feeling that the low light performance of K-x is far better than of any camera in that range. It is actual a camera with a great potential for astrophotography, but it is crippled because you cannot turn the noise reduction off when used in bulb mode. A drawback of K-x is that it does not give the indication in viewfinder which focus point reached the focus. Since I would change the focus screen this really is not a drawback.
It seems that K20d would be a good choice If I would get a really good deal, but K-x or K-r would be even better choice.

Now the mirrorless cameras. I am not particularly fond of idea not having the optical viewfinder. Obviously I use it a lot, but when using lenses faster than f2.8 I almost exclusively use liveview, since it is almost impossible to get a precise focus with optical viewfinder and AF confirmation. With my f1.4 Auto Revuenon I use adapter with the latest generation AF chip. I managed to calibrate it precisly for shots from distance of 1 to 2 meters, but liveview is still superior. This "style" of photograpy therefore favors the mirrorless cameras.

Here I have a very important question. Did anybody actually managed to get a precise focus with fast lenses (below f2.0) with a split prism focusing screen in optical viewfinder of the size in APS-C cameras. If this is possible then I would prefer optical viewfinder. If this is in majority of common situations not possible then I will definitely think about mirrorless cameras. But I do wonder how good is the electronic viewfinder.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The only way for 100% accurate focus is...

1. Good eye sight at close range (0.3-0.5m) and...
2. 10+ X magnification liveview


AF confirm or focus peaking is only approximate, possibly marginally faster but not as exact as magnified liveview and not as fast as auto focus. Not something you want to pay for.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
strudelj wrote:
Here I have a very important question. Did anybody actually managed to get a precise focus with fast lenses (below f2.0) with a split prism focusing screen in optical viewfinder of the size in APS-C cameras

yes, I get precise focus at f1.4 or f1.2 but not with split prism
the split prism is slow and limited to the center of the frame
I use a Canon EE-s screen which make focus very easy
for liveview I have a 4 euros self made loupe that I use for video
but I get more shot in focus with optical viewfinder
the focus on the 40D was more easy than the 5DII
20 Mpix at 100% show the slightest out of focus
and lens on a crop like the 40D have 1 stop more dof than FF


PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes it is possible to get pricise focus using the viewfinder. But it is only possible with a perfectly adjusted focussing screen. I used a cheap split focussing screen (from China) on my Pentax K10D and K20D. But adjusting the distance using thin layers of tape (on the sides of the screen) was tedious.
Now I have Canon and have used the EE-S/EG-S Screens for Canon 40D, 5D and currently my 5DII, without any adjusting the focus is perfect.

Some other personal experience:
I don't like split prisms, because they only work in the middle of the screen. Best for me is plain matte screen.
Changing screens on my Pentax totally screwed the automatic exposure. (But I have to admit, the screen was cheap China version, may be better with pricey versions)
Focus confirmation is useless on Pentax and Canon. I only use the viewfinder or live-view (macro).


PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
pst wrote:
Now I have Canon and have used the EE-S/EG-S Screens for Canon 40D, 5D and currently my 5DII, without any adjusting the focus is perfect.


Don't those screens fit only 5d (or higher) cameras. Did you have to cut the screen to fit it into 40d.

Which screen would be the best for canon 450d (either made for 450d or bigger which could be cut to fit 450d) and which would be best for Pentax K-x (again either made for K-x or bigger so it could be cut down to fit K-x).

I have shotened the list of alternatives to 450d and the only alternative to Canon 450d (at least for me) is now Pentax K-x/K-r. Mirrorless cameras do not have in-built stabilization and K20d had a lot of problems with dead and hot pixels.


PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
strudelj wrote:
Don't those screens fit only 5d (or higher) cameras. Did you have to cut the screen to fit it into 40d.

Which screen would be the best for canon 450d (either made for 450d or bigger which could be cut to fit 450d) and which would be best for Pentax K-x (again either made for K-x or bigger so it could be cut down to fit K-x).


There is an original screen for the 40D also. But since you need one for the 450D, I cannot give you any further advice.
You can check focussingscreen.com


PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
strudelj wrote:
I have shotened the list of alternatives to 450d and the only alternative to Canon 450d (at least for me) is now Pentax K-x/K-r. Mirrorless cameras do not have in-built stabilization

Remember Canon cameras don't have stabilisation either, not with MF lenses.


PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
peterqd wrote:
strudelj wrote:
I have shotened the list of alternatives to 450d and the only alternative to Canon 450d (at least for me) is now Pentax K-x/K-r. Mirrorless cameras do not have in-built stabilization

Remember Canon cameras don't have stabilisation either, not with MF lenses.


Yes I know, it is one of the main reasons for going from canon to pentax. Mirrorless cameras might be a nice choice for a second camera body.
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