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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Seems cleanable J-9 is not a difficult lens. If you keep in right way this lens , don't need to clean it will not growing. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Attila wrote: |
Seems cleanable J-9 is not a difficult lens. If you keep in right way this lens , don't need to clean it will not growing. |
It may not expand further more, but it will keep eating stuff where it already exists. If it only ate on the coating layer, that is not so bad, but if it attacks the glass, you can throw the lens in the bin. So my suggestion is not to wait and clean the lens soon. _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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Nelson
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 618 Location: close to Paris, France
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Nelson wrote:
Orio wrote: |
So my suggestion is not to wait and clean the lens soon. |
clean with "what" ? _________________ DSLR : EOS 350D, 300D, 7D, 5D
Pentacon 50 f1.8, 135 f2.8, 200 f4;
TAIR 3S
Helios 44/2
Meyer Optik Orestegor 200mm f4 Orestegor 300mm f4
Tamron 24mm f2.5 01B, 300mm f5.6 670Au, 75 250, 300mm f5.6 SP 54B, 500mm f8 SP 55B, SP 70 210 3.5, SP 60 300
my MF lenses
EF 50 1.8 I, EF 100macro f2.8, EF 70-200 F4 L is, EFS 17-55 f2.8 is, Sigma 10-20 EX, 18-50 2.8 EX, 300 f4 hsm, 400 5.6 hsm |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Nelson wrote: |
Orio wrote: |
So my suggestion is not to wait and clean the lens soon. |
clean with "what" ? |
Attila has the right formula.
I don't do such operations on lenses, when I need to I send them to servicing, they take 40-50 Euros so I find it more convenient than a headache _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
I use 50% ammonia and 50% hidrogen-peroxid this liquid remove all protein successfully. It smelly as well _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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F16SUNSHINE
Joined: 20 Aug 2007 Posts: 5486 Location: Left Coast
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: |
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F16SUNSHINE wrote:
Hello
I have been soooo busy not much time to look at forum or respond to posts. I did just see this post and want to add two things to stop fungus growing. This will kill it but not remove it. Ok, so put the lens in a zip bag (airtight) and into the freezer. Some types of exotic fungus will survive short freezing. None of the lens destroying fungus will survive a week in the freezer. Also UV is your friend to kill fungus. Freezer and Sunlight. Now some will say oh the freezer will ruin the grease in the helli. Well if in fact that happens it is very repairable. I have never had a problem and have frozen half a dozen lenses over the years. Remember this is a stop growth solution not a remove one.
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fotomachi
Joined: 02 Feb 2008 Posts: 638 Location: Estados Unidos de las Esferas Ultraterrenales
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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fotomachi wrote:
I'm not a specialist in lens fungus, but if I try hard to bring back my traumatic recollections from high school, I'd say that UV should be a better option than freezing. By freezing, you can kill micro-organisms but not necessarily their germs, while UV kills both. _________________ :::[ f o t o m a c h i . M X ]:::
:::[ F o T o M a C h i . C o M ]:::
:::[ M y . l e n s . c o l l e c t i o n ]:::
:::[ M a c h i g l a z k i . О п т и к . B l o g ]::: |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
UV kills fungus that's right. The problem is that you need quite a considerable dosis and the lens elements often prevent UV light from getting into the lens.
To be really on the safe side, you need to disassemble the lens and clean the elements - that is the bad news.
Because sometimes you cannot put two elements apart. Have you ever tried to get in between the two front elements of the Kaleinar 2.8/100? I did and it seems to be impossible without breaking the lens, since these elements seem to be glued together inside a tube. I was able to remove the fungus from this lens (it is not difficult to disassemble and re-assemle it correctly which is an even more important aspect!) apart from the filaments that are visible the internal edge of front element. So I store the lens in a plastic box with dehumidifiying packets and only take it out if I want to use it. And even then I do not carry the lens around in the same bag as my other lenses...
That's OK, it does work, it is just some more hassle than with a clean lens, so I do not use the Kaleinar as often as I would like to, which is a pity for this is such a great piece of glass. _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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fotomachi
Joined: 02 Feb 2008 Posts: 638 Location: Estados Unidos de las Esferas Ultraterrenales
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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fotomachi wrote:
Perhaps sterilization of the lens is an option... If you want to grow mushrooms, you first have to sterilize all your equipment in a pressure cooker. What would it to do your lens? _________________ :::[ f o t o m a c h i . M X ]:::
:::[ F o T o M a C h i . C o M ]:::
:::[ M y . l e n s . c o l l e c t i o n ]:::
:::[ M a c h i g l a z k i . О п т и к . B l o g ]::: |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
I found fungus close to nuclear reactor so to kill with UV kind of fun. If keep your collection in dry 35-50% humidity environment without caps you will never get fungus. If you have already in this environment it will stop growing.
Fungus can be survive almost everything except mechanical removal.Mechanical removal can be done with any material what is attack perfectly live protein and you remove dead fungus with soft clothes. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Described as "dust inside" sold as is for repair _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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zewrak
Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 1212
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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zewrak wrote:
Attila wrote: |
I use 50% ammonia and 50% hidrogen-peroxid this liquid remove all protein successfully. It smelly as well |
Any less hard to get chemical that one can use instead of hidrogen-peroxid? There is afaik, one place in sweden that sell it. And thats 400km away. :p
Or are you guys using some lowpercentage mixture? _________________ My homepage, all manual shots
Last edited by zewrak on Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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zewrak
Joined: 12 Apr 2008 Posts: 1212
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: |
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zewrak wrote:
Attila wrote: |
I found fungus close to nuclear reactor so to kill with UV kind of fun. If keep your collection in dry 35-50% humidity environment without caps you will never get fungus. If you have already in this environment it will stop growing.
Fungus can be survive almost everything except mechanical removal.Mechanical removal can be done with any material what is attack perfectly live protein and you remove dead fungus with soft clothes. |
I guess it would depend on the grade of UV? I think that with UV-C you should be able to kill it? I mean, it could kill people. I think UV-C are rather hard and expensive to get though. UV-B is strong enough to damage your skin though. UV-A is nonharmful (except for your eyes perhaps). UV-C I think is used for pools and stuff to kill bacteria etc in water. _________________ My homepage, all manual shots |
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pentaxman
Joined: 11 Oct 2008 Posts: 1
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: |
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pentaxman wrote:
zewrak wrote: |
Attila wrote: |
I use 50% ammonia and 50% hidrogen-peroxid this liquid remove all protein successfully. It smelly as well |
Any less hard to get chemical that one can use instead of hidrogen-peroxid? There is afaik, one place in sweden that sell it. And thats 400km away. :p
Or are you guys using some lowpercentage mixture? |
MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone) works really well. It is available from paint stores. It is paint remover. It dissolves fungus really well. Just be careful not to get it on paint or plastic, it will dissolve those also. |
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mattan
Joined: 26 Nov 2008 Posts: 5
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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mattan wrote:
This is my Helios auto tele converter 2x that I just got on ebay for 10€.
It seems to have a bad case of fungus , what do you think? Doesn't seem to had to pic it apart and clean it. I think I'll do the freezer thing first, then pick it apart and clean the lens, sould I think of something special? I want to use this with most of my manual lenses but don`t want to risk geting fungus on the rest. |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Fungus is not spread if you store your lenses right.
You can clean it easily I guess. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Sevo
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 Posts: 1189 Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Expire: 2012-12-03
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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Sevo wrote:
That is condensation stippling - at some time, damp air condensated on the cold lens surface, and redistributed the existing dirt layer into that driplet pattern. The dirt may of course contain fungus, but more often it does not, so it is certainly worth while to make a cleaning attempt.
Sevo |
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mattan
Joined: 26 Nov 2008 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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mattan wrote:
Cleaned it without any problem, came right off. Put it in the freezer just in case...
Thanks for the help |
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indianadinos
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 Posts: 1310 Location: Toulouse, France
Expire: 2011-12-05
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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indianadinos wrote:
Hello,
zewrak wrote: |
Attila wrote: |
I use 50% ammonia and 50% hidrogen-peroxid this liquid remove all protein successfully. It smelly as well |
Any less hard to get chemical that one can use instead of hidrogen-peroxid? There is afaik, one place in sweden that sell it. And thats 400km away. :p
Or are you guys using some lowpercentage mixture? |
Why don't you give a try to cold cream ? I just cleaned some fungus traces from my Boyer Saphir this way ...
Best regards _________________ Please visit my blogs Shooting with a Pentax K10D / FF Visions
Takumar: 24/3.5, 28/3.5, 35/2, 35/3.5, 50/1.4, 55/1.8, 85/1.8, 105/2.8, 120/2.8, 135/3.5, 150/4, 200/4
Pentax-K: M28/2.8, K28/3.5, M50/1.4, A50/1.7, M50/4 Macro, K85/1.8, K105/2.8, K135/2.5, M200/4, M70-150/4
Zeiss: Flektogon 20/2.8, 20/4, 35/2.4, 35/2.8, Tessar 50/2.8, Pancolar 50/1.8, Biotar 58/2, Sonnar 135/3.5, Sonnar 180/2.8
Meyer: Primagon 35/4.5, Domiplan 50/2.8, Oreston 50/1.8, Primoplan 58/1.9, Trioplan 100/2.8, Orestor 100/2.8, Orestor 135/2.8
Schacht/Steinheil: Travenar 90/2.8, Travenon 135/4.5, Quinar 135/2.8, Quinar 135/3.5
Russian: MIR 37B, Industar 50/3.5, Helios 44M & 44M-2, Jupiter 37A
P6: Flektogon 50/4, Biometar 80/2.8, Orestor 300/4
Nikkor: Nikkor-O 35/2, Micro 55/3.5, Nikkor-S 50/1.4, Nikkor-Q 135/2.8
Fuji: EBC 28/3.5, EBC 55/3.5 Macro, EBC 135/2.5
Misc Lenses: Kiron 105/2.8 Macro, Tamron SP90/2.5
... and a few other Vivitar, Tamron, Sigma and Soligor lenses ...
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
I think fungus a very strong organism hard to kill successfully even if seems not there anymore. Strong chemical made it's body to liquid shape and no chance to survive. I saw fungus in very high radioactivity at Nuclear Power Plant where I did work before. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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indianadinos
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 Posts: 1310 Location: Toulouse, France
Expire: 2011-12-05
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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indianadinos wrote:
Hello,
Attila wrote: |
I think fungus a very strong organism hard to kill successfully even if seems not there anymore. Strong chemical made it's body to liquid shape and no chance to survive. I saw fungus in very high radioactivity at Nuclear Power Plant where I did work before. |
Right ... Maybe i should give my lens a bath of ammonia/hydrogen peroxide, and then clean it again, just to be sure ... Will try this on my Orestor 135, it has some specks on its inner element ...
Cheers _________________ Please visit my blogs Shooting with a Pentax K10D / FF Visions
Takumar: 24/3.5, 28/3.5, 35/2, 35/3.5, 50/1.4, 55/1.8, 85/1.8, 105/2.8, 120/2.8, 135/3.5, 150/4, 200/4
Pentax-K: M28/2.8, K28/3.5, M50/1.4, A50/1.7, M50/4 Macro, K85/1.8, K105/2.8, K135/2.5, M200/4, M70-150/4
Zeiss: Flektogon 20/2.8, 20/4, 35/2.4, 35/2.8, Tessar 50/2.8, Pancolar 50/1.8, Biotar 58/2, Sonnar 135/3.5, Sonnar 180/2.8
Meyer: Primagon 35/4.5, Domiplan 50/2.8, Oreston 50/1.8, Primoplan 58/1.9, Trioplan 100/2.8, Orestor 100/2.8, Orestor 135/2.8
Schacht/Steinheil: Travenar 90/2.8, Travenon 135/4.5, Quinar 135/2.8, Quinar 135/3.5
Russian: MIR 37B, Industar 50/3.5, Helios 44M & 44M-2, Jupiter 37A
P6: Flektogon 50/4, Biometar 80/2.8, Orestor 300/4
Nikkor: Nikkor-O 35/2, Micro 55/3.5, Nikkor-S 50/1.4, Nikkor-Q 135/2.8
Fuji: EBC 28/3.5, EBC 55/3.5 Macro, EBC 135/2.5
Misc Lenses: Kiron 105/2.8 Macro, Tamron SP90/2.5
... and a few other Vivitar, Tamron, Sigma and Soligor lenses ...
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
I think enough to store right in my experience if store right even if it has fungus fungus not growing anymore. Fungus one of people mistake their avoid from fungus like pest , but this is false thinking same like scratches on lenses. In most of cases not impact anything else than silly user brain. At the beginning if I get a fungused lens I did try to remove immediately. Now I have lot more lenses and lot less time , so I put them together a separate dry box where humidity is low around 30% two years left none of them did grow up. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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indianadinos
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 Posts: 1310 Location: Toulouse, France
Expire: 2011-12-05
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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indianadinos wrote:
Attila wrote: |
In most of cases not impact anything else than silly user brain.
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Totally agree ... I have used my infected Orestor 135, and the speck of mold in the middle didn't affect IQ ... Nevertheless, the lens came really cheap because when i bought it i let the seller notice the fungus ... And with a bit of luck, the mold will be removed soon ...
Cheers _________________ Please visit my blogs Shooting with a Pentax K10D / FF Visions
Takumar: 24/3.5, 28/3.5, 35/2, 35/3.5, 50/1.4, 55/1.8, 85/1.8, 105/2.8, 120/2.8, 135/3.5, 150/4, 200/4
Pentax-K: M28/2.8, K28/3.5, M50/1.4, A50/1.7, M50/4 Macro, K85/1.8, K105/2.8, K135/2.5, M200/4, M70-150/4
Zeiss: Flektogon 20/2.8, 20/4, 35/2.4, 35/2.8, Tessar 50/2.8, Pancolar 50/1.8, Biotar 58/2, Sonnar 135/3.5, Sonnar 180/2.8
Meyer: Primagon 35/4.5, Domiplan 50/2.8, Oreston 50/1.8, Primoplan 58/1.9, Trioplan 100/2.8, Orestor 100/2.8, Orestor 135/2.8
Schacht/Steinheil: Travenar 90/2.8, Travenon 135/4.5, Quinar 135/2.8, Quinar 135/3.5
Russian: MIR 37B, Industar 50/3.5, Helios 44M & 44M-2, Jupiter 37A
P6: Flektogon 50/4, Biometar 80/2.8, Orestor 300/4
Nikkor: Nikkor-O 35/2, Micro 55/3.5, Nikkor-S 50/1.4, Nikkor-Q 135/2.8
Fuji: EBC 28/3.5, EBC 55/3.5 Macro, EBC 135/2.5
Misc Lenses: Kiron 105/2.8 Macro, Tamron SP90/2.5
... and a few other Vivitar, Tamron, Sigma and Soligor lenses ...
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Yes! _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008 Posts: 3754 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: |
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estudleon wrote:
I can buy a zebra CZJ sonnar 180/2,8 that has fungus, but it is filled with fungus. My question is until what amount of fungus can be tolerated so that it is good the lens? How much money would have to offer?
An old seller told me that I must take a lupe and see one thing (eg a pretty woman) thru the lens with fungus. Image that I can see=image in the film (or sensor). Did he try to sell to me a fungus lens? May be.
He said to me that one of the best fungus killer : the present gastric juice in the saliva.
Thanks Rino _________________ Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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