View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
NothingMan
Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 98 Location: Bosnia Herzegovina
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: First time with 1.2 lens. Zuiko 55/1.2 photos and thoughts |
|
|
NothingMan wrote:
I recently got this lens in fantastic shape for peanuts. Im a bokeh lover so here are my thoughts:
This lens doesnt like day light at all . Ive got hood on it all the time but in the daylight (open spaces, no shadows) this lens is pretty poor to my liking. Im talking wide open of course, havent even tried it stopped down because i got it for the 1.2. Photos seem washed out, almost no contrast at all, dreamy...yeah but Id like bit more contrast and sharpness in there. Against strongly back-lit objects with fine contours it is absolutely dreadful. However I tried it at night with artifical light, it behaves a lot, lot better!
Here are some examples, straight out of LR, 5DII RAW converted to 800px wide jpg with no filters. All shot wide open.
This is too soft for my tastes, can anyone recommend a really good 50 1.4 glass, which is preferably under $500. And Im only interested in its performance wide open, Ill never use it past f4...
Some shots are shot at ISO 12800 and all other 3200 and up so it might not reveal great deal about the lens.
_________________
Canon Gear: 5DII | 40D | 50 1.8 | 85 1.8 | 17-40 L |
MF Lenses: S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 | S-M-C Tak 135 3.5 | S-M-C Tak 28 3.5 | Helios 44-3/44-2/44m-4/44-4 | Yashica ML 50 1.4 | CZJ Pancolar 50/1.8 | Jupiter 37A | Zuiko 55 1.2 | Zuiko 24 2.8 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Attila wrote:
Congrats! Still on my wishlist , great lens! _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Arctures
Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 295
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Arctures wrote:
N2 and N8 are really excellent shots they rock! Some other shots are considering to be taken in different light situation or with off-camera flash. Every glass has it's stronger and weaker sides and there are no absolutely strong or weak lens at all. What for 50/1.4 best I've seen so far were: Planar 50/1.4, Pentax M SMC 50/1.4 and Nikkor 50/1.4. _________________ Sony A7, NEX-5n, Panasonic GH5(Oly12-40/2., Contax Distagon T* 28/2.8, Contax Planar T* 50/1.4, Contax T* 80-200/4,
Minolta Rokkor MC 58/1.2, Minolta MC Rokkor-X PF 50/1.7, Minolta MD 50/2.0, Konica Hexanon AR 50/1.8,
Konica Hexanon 57/1.4, Rokkor-PF 55/1.7, Konica Hexanon 40/1.8, Auto Yashinon 50/2.0, Canon FD 50/3.5
Voigtl�nder APO Lanthar 90/3.5 M42, Topcon RE.Topcor 58/1.8, Helios-44-2 58/2.0, Canon FD 24/2.8,
Canon FD 135/2.5 SC, Auto Topcor 135/3.5, Pentax SMC 55/1.8, Minolta 35/2.8, Minolta MD 35-70/3.5 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10472 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
poilu wrote:
the lens look fine, editing should improve color balance and contrast
have you try it at f1.4 or f2 to see how much it improve _________________ T* |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NothingMan
Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 98 Location: Bosnia Herzegovina
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
NothingMan wrote:
Attila wrote: |
Congrats! Still on my wishlist , great lens! |
Thanks! I wasnt looking for one, it just came to me . However I like my lenses sharper than this
These are edited photos, 1.2 is quite usable if the focus is spot on.
_________________
Canon Gear: 5DII | 40D | 50 1.8 | 85 1.8 | 17-40 L |
MF Lenses: S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 | S-M-C Tak 135 3.5 | S-M-C Tak 28 3.5 | Helios 44-3/44-2/44m-4/44-4 | Yashica ML 50 1.4 | CZJ Pancolar 50/1.8 | Jupiter 37A | Zuiko 55 1.2 | Zuiko 24 2.8 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jjphoto
Joined: 17 Mar 2009 Posts: 414
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
jjphoto wrote:
If you're after a sharp (wide open) F1.4 lens then try the AE or MM Contax 50/1.4. They are also quite cheap.
JJ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NothingMan
Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 98 Location: Bosnia Herzegovina
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
NothingMan wrote:
Arctures wrote: |
N2 and N8 are really excellent shots they rock! Some other shots are considering to be taken in different light situation or with off-camera flash. Every glass has it's stronger and weaker sides and there are no absolutely strong or weak lens at all. What for 50/1.4 best I've seen so far were: Planar 50/1.4, Pentax M SMC 50/1.4 and Nikkor 50/1.4. |
Ive had SMC Takumar 50 1.4 (sold it), I never liked it for some reason. Currently I have yashica ML 50 1.4 and I love it, wish it was tad sharper... I know yashica 50/1.4 is made to compete with planar, but just how much better planar is compared to yashica? It gets even worse when I paid for my yashica (in not so great shape) $35. I also used canon EF 50 1.4 and found it lacking wide open... _________________
Canon Gear: 5DII | 40D | 50 1.8 | 85 1.8 | 17-40 L |
MF Lenses: S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 | S-M-C Tak 135 3.5 | S-M-C Tak 28 3.5 | Helios 44-3/44-2/44m-4/44-4 | Yashica ML 50 1.4 | CZJ Pancolar 50/1.8 | Jupiter 37A | Zuiko 55 1.2 | Zuiko 24 2.8 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hoanpham
Joined: 31 Jan 2011 Posts: 2575
Expire: 2015-01-18
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
hoanpham wrote:
I found my copy is ok in daylight, but it really shines indoor
#1 @f11
#2 @f11
#3 @f1.2
_________________ La migliore cura di LBA � imparare una nuova lingua. Le meilleur rem�de de LBA est d'apprendre une nouvelle langue. La mejor cura del LBA es aprender una nueva lengua. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Attila wrote:
Nice one Hoan! I like all not only indoor shoots , BTW your Tomioka in my hands I will send it to you back soon, outdoor test is done, I plan to test indoor also in Basilica. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
NothingMan
Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 98 Location: Bosnia Herzegovina
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
NothingMan wrote:
hoanpham wrote: |
I found my copy is ok in daylight, but it really shines indoor
#1 @f11
#2 @f11
#3 @f1.2
|
Great shots! I dont even know what f11 looks like on a 1.2 lens . Kidding aside, Im a wide-open-shooter so I wasnt really interested in how it performs past 1.2, because lets face it, any good 50 1.8 lens will be on par with it...
Thing is, when im not shooting wide open Im shooting wideangle, and Ive got 2 of those whose sharpness is tough to beat, and naturally bokeh is not important because there is no DOF. _________________
Canon Gear: 5DII | 40D | 50 1.8 | 85 1.8 | 17-40 L |
MF Lenses: S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 | S-M-C Tak 135 3.5 | S-M-C Tak 28 3.5 | Helios 44-3/44-2/44m-4/44-4 | Yashica ML 50 1.4 | CZJ Pancolar 50/1.8 | Jupiter 37A | Zuiko 55 1.2 | Zuiko 24 2.8 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Arctures
Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 295
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Arctures wrote:
NothingMan wrote: |
Ive had SMC Takumar 50 1.4 (sold it), I never liked it for some reason. |
I ment Pentax-M not Takumar. I also owned Takumar 50/1.4 and sold it too after I've got Planar 50/1.4. Haven't had that Yashica. _________________ Sony A7, NEX-5n, Panasonic GH5(Oly12-40/2., Contax Distagon T* 28/2.8, Contax Planar T* 50/1.4, Contax T* 80-200/4,
Minolta Rokkor MC 58/1.2, Minolta MC Rokkor-X PF 50/1.7, Minolta MD 50/2.0, Konica Hexanon AR 50/1.8,
Konica Hexanon 57/1.4, Rokkor-PF 55/1.7, Konica Hexanon 40/1.8, Auto Yashinon 50/2.0, Canon FD 50/3.5
Voigtl�nder APO Lanthar 90/3.5 M42, Topcon RE.Topcor 58/1.8, Helios-44-2 58/2.0, Canon FD 24/2.8,
Canon FD 135/2.5 SC, Auto Topcor 135/3.5, Pentax SMC 55/1.8, Minolta 35/2.8, Minolta MD 35-70/3.5 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jjphoto
Joined: 17 Mar 2009 Posts: 414
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
jjphoto wrote:
Arctures wrote: |
...Currently I have yashica ML 50 1.4 and I love it, wish it was tad sharper... I know yashica 50/1.4 is made to compete with planar, but just how much better planar is compared to yashica? .... |
They render about the same but there is a noticeable difference in sharpness, sorry I don't have 100% crops online to link to.
Last edited by jjphoto on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NothingMan
Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 98 Location: Bosnia Herzegovina
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
NothingMan wrote:
jjphoto wrote: |
Arctures wrote: |
...Currently I have yashica ML 50 1.4 and I love it, wish it was tad sharper... I know yashica 50/1.4 is made to compete with planar, but just how much better planar is compared to yashica? .... |
I have the ML 50/1.4 Contax 50/1.4 AE and MM. The 2 Contax lenses seem about the same and I'm not sure if there is any optical difference except due to sample variation. The AE has the Ninja aperture blades but I've never experienced that to matter.
The Contax 50/1.4 is sharper than the ML 50/1.4 at every aperture. Even stopped down the ML is not as sharp as the Contax, even though most 50's seem to be in the same ball park when stopped down.
They render about the same but there is a noticeable difference in sharpness, sorry I don't have 100% crops online to link to.
Contax 50/1.4 at F1.4
ML 50/1.4 at F1.4
These are at F8, 100% crops. These tests where not intended as proper lens tests and where just done on the spur of the moment so where shot handheld, but I think they are representitive of the difference between the lenses.
Contax 50/1.4 at F8
ML 50/1.4 at F8
JJ |
Ive read your review on FM forums, and Ive seen the difference. Great review btw . But like I said I paid peanuts for yashica ($35) and planars go up to $400 nowadays, so Im thinking if it would be smart to go for planar if i have yashica...In your opinion, is it worth it? _________________
Canon Gear: 5DII | 40D | 50 1.8 | 85 1.8 | 17-40 L |
MF Lenses: S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 | S-M-C Tak 135 3.5 | S-M-C Tak 28 3.5 | Helios 44-3/44-2/44m-4/44-4 | Yashica ML 50 1.4 | CZJ Pancolar 50/1.8 | Jupiter 37A | Zuiko 55 1.2 | Zuiko 24 2.8 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hoanpham
Joined: 31 Jan 2011 Posts: 2575
Expire: 2015-01-18
|
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
hoanpham wrote:
You are not the only one who like to shoot at f1.2 outdoor
Here in snow condition:
#w1
#w2
Attila, Thanks. No rush. I still have a few to run through _________________ La migliore cura di LBA � imparare una nuova lingua. Le meilleur rem�de de LBA est d'apprendre une nouvelle langue. La mejor cura del LBA es aprender una nueva lengua. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jjphoto
Joined: 17 Mar 2009 Posts: 414
|
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
jjphoto wrote:
NothingMan wrote: |
...Ive read your review on FM forums, and Ive seen the difference. Great review btw ... |
Thanks.
Last edited by jjphoto on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
IAZA
Joined: 16 Apr 2010 Posts: 2587 Location: Indonesia
|
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
IAZA wrote:
I was going to buy this OM 1,2 and ML 1,2. same seller. Then I compared both, in term of sharpness wideopen, ML 1,2 is better. so I took the ML.
Now I have Konica Hexanon 57/1,2 and Pentax SMC K 50/1,2 which sharper than ML
For 1,4 SMC M Pentax is my choice. I have CZ Planar once, I sold it. the difference isn't too big in my taste, but the price is too big _________________ nex5, Olympus EPM1, yashica half 14, Canon eos 650 want to see samples of mine? please click My lenses
and My gallery
~Suat~ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NothingMan
Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 98 Location: Bosnia Herzegovina
|
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
NothingMan wrote:
Quote: |
I don't know if it's 'worth it'. That's very subjective and only you can answer that. To put it another way, the Leica 50/1.4 E60 is the best lens of this kind (although also with it's own flaws) but is it worth $2500 plus? To me it's not, and not even close to being worth it. So maybe the Contax vs ML argument is the same. |
I see what you mean...Problem is I cant try the planar without buying so thats a problem for me.
Oh well, I hope Ill find a bargain copy sometimes which I doubt .
And yeah, $2500 for a 50 1.4 is just absurd if you ask me.... _________________
Canon Gear: 5DII | 40D | 50 1.8 | 85 1.8 | 17-40 L |
MF Lenses: S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 | S-M-C Tak 135 3.5 | S-M-C Tak 28 3.5 | Helios 44-3/44-2/44m-4/44-4 | Yashica ML 50 1.4 | CZJ Pancolar 50/1.8 | Jupiter 37A | Zuiko 55 1.2 | Zuiko 24 2.8 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tedat
Joined: 08 Nov 2011 Posts: 800 Location: Berlin/Germany
|
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Tedat wrote:
NothingMan wrote: |
These are edited photos, 1.2 is quite usable if the focus is spot on.
|
1.2 isn't easy to handle, but if you got the right focus.. absolut wonderful photos! _________________ Regards
Jan
flickr
Sony A7RM2
Contax T*: Distagon 4/18, Distagon 2/28, Distagon 1.4/35, PC-Distagon 2.8/35, Planar 1.4/50, Planar 1.4/85, Planar 2/100, Planar 2/135, S-Planar 2.8/60, Tessar 2.8/45, Mirotar 8/500, Vario Sonnar 3.4/35-70, Vario Sonnar 4.5-5.6/100-300
Carl Zeiss for Rollei QBM: F-Distagon 2.8/16 HFT, Distagon 2.8/25, Planar 1.4/50 HFT, Sonnar 2.8/85
Konica Hexanon AR: 2.8/21, 1.2/57
Other: Minolta F2.8 [T4.5] 135mm STF, Meopta Meostigmat 1.4/70, Tokina AT-X 2.5/90.. and lots of early M42 Yashinon, Rikenon and Mamiya lenses |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NothingMan
Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 98 Location: Bosnia Herzegovina
|
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
NothingMan wrote:
I find zuikos focus ring the best Ive ever tried. Ive had some takumars before, but this thing has such a wonderful focus feel to it that Im finding I focus this thing at 1.2 a lot better and easier that any of my other (10 or so) 50mm lenses.
5DII Post processed shots, all @ f1.2.
[img]
[/img]
This lens has a lot of flaws, but if you play to its strengths it can be truly beautiful. _________________
Canon Gear: 5DII | 40D | 50 1.8 | 85 1.8 | 17-40 L |
MF Lenses: S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 | S-M-C Tak 135 3.5 | S-M-C Tak 28 3.5 | Helios 44-3/44-2/44m-4/44-4 | Yashica ML 50 1.4 | CZJ Pancolar 50/1.8 | Jupiter 37A | Zuiko 55 1.2 | Zuiko 24 2.8 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
WolverineX
Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Posts: 1693 Location: Zagreb , Croatia , Europe
|
Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
WolverineX wrote:
here you can find few samples from my copy of Oly 55mm/1.2
http://forum.mflenses.com/testing-my-lenses-part-14-olympus-55mm-1-2-t31138,highlight,%2Btesting+%2Blenses.html _________________ my tools:Oly E-M5 + 45mm/1.8 + Oly E-520 + 12-60 + 14-42 + 70-300 + Sigma 105mm + FL-50R + EC20 + SRF-11 ring flash
http://forum.mflenses.com/wolverinex-testing-my-lenses-series-link-list-t39524.html |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lightshow
Joined: 04 Nov 2011 Posts: 3666 Location: Calgary
|
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lightshow wrote:
NothingMan wrote: |
Quote: |
I don't know if it's 'worth it'. That's very subjective and only you can answer that. To put it another way, the Leica 50/1.4 E60 is the best lens of this kind (although also with it's own flaws) but is it worth $2500 plus? To me it's not, and not even close to being worth it. So maybe the Contax vs ML argument is the same. |
I see what you mean...Problem is I cant try the planar without buying so thats a problem for me.
Oh well, I hope Ill find a bargain copy sometimes which I doubt .
And yeah, $2500 for a 50 1.4 is just absurd if you ask me.... |
+1, I haven't seen anything from Leica glass that you can't get from other high quality glass for 1/4 to 1/2the cost.
NothingMan wrote: |
I find zuikos focus ring the best Ive ever tried. Ive had some takumars before, but this thing has such a wonderful focus feel to it that Im finding I focus this thing at 1.2 a lot better and easier that any of my other (10 or so) 50mm lenses. |
And I prefer the Tak's over the Zuiko's for feel, but then i prefer metal focus rings to the rubber ones. _________________ A Manual Focus Junky...
One photographers junk lens is an artists favorite tool.
My lens list
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightshow-photography/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
|
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Orio wrote:
This looks like a great lens.
At f/1.2 it behaves similarly to my Nikkor 1.2/55, that is, it displays some residual spherical aberration (my Nikkor shows more of it to be honest).
But it can be minimized easily with some wise use of photoshop.
The only other potential issue seems to be some flare when there is a light source next to the frame, as in the bar pictures.
That will also be easily solved by use of a lens hood.
The stopped down photos show a lens with remarkable performance.
So I would say this is a great buy, congratulations. _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
|
Back to top |
|
|
NothingMan
Joined: 02 Mar 2011 Posts: 98 Location: Bosnia Herzegovina
|
Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
NothingMan wrote:
Orio wrote: |
This looks like a great lens.
At f/1.2 it behaves similarly to my Nikkor 1.2/55, that is, it displays some residual spherical aberration (my Nikkor shows more of it to be honest).
But it can be minimized easily with some wise use of photoshop.
The only other potential issue seems to be some flare when there is a light source next to the frame, as in the bar pictures.
That will also be easily solved by use of a lens hood.
The stopped down photos show a lens with remarkable performance.
So I would say this is a great buy, congratulations. |
Thanks Orio. Havent tried it much stopped down, from the few shots i did I thought Pancolar outresolves it easily @5.6 and smaller aperture. Didnt do a test so I might be wrong. But this lens surely hates harsh light. But Im finding the more I use it the more I like it. Its a love or hate relationship I guess _________________
Canon Gear: 5DII | 40D | 50 1.8 | 85 1.8 | 17-40 L |
MF Lenses: S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 | S-M-C Tak 135 3.5 | S-M-C Tak 28 3.5 | Helios 44-3/44-2/44m-4/44-4 | Yashica ML 50 1.4 | CZJ Pancolar 50/1.8 | Jupiter 37A | Zuiko 55 1.2 | Zuiko 24 2.8 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Laurentiu Cristofor
Joined: 23 Oct 2010 Posts: 524 Location: WA, USA
|
Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:08 am Post subject: Re: First time with 1.2 lens. Zuiko 55/1.2 photos and though |
|
|
Laurentiu Cristofor wrote:
NothingMan wrote: |
This lens doesnt like day light at all . Ive got hood on it all the time but in the daylight (open spaces, no shadows) this lens is pretty poor to my liking. |
This was the case for my Cosina 55/1.2 as well. Strong LoCA in strong sunshine. But in cloudy conditions, it works very well. And it is excellent for available light.
Here are a couple of samples wide open:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/laurentiucristofor/6293365859
http://www.flickr.com/photos/laurentiucristofor/6271828826
NothingMan wrote: |
This is too soft for my tastes, can anyone recommend a really good 50 1.4 glass, which is preferably under $500. |
I like the Super Takumar a lot, but you sound like you want a lens that would perform well under any condition and for that I think you should look for the Voigtlander Nokton 58/1.4. I used it a lot at f/1.4 for portraiture, but I only have samples to share where I used it stopped down a bit. Here are a few at f/2:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/laurentiucristofor/6182431837
http://www.flickr.com/photos/laurentiucristofor/6182431335
These are all taken using APS-C cameras - you can expect thinner DOF on your 5DII. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008 Posts: 6950 Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
|
Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
martinsmith99 wrote:
No real advice from me, but you seem competant at getting correct focus from a lens like this; I cannot get accurate focus with fast lenses wide open. Are you using live view? _________________ Casual attendance these days |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|