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Your favorite Sonnar/Ernostar-type lenses
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 7:38 am    Post subject: Your favorite Sonnar/Ernostar-type lenses Reply with quote
So, prompted by this question of visualopsins, I decided to create this thread:

visualopsins wrote:
Actually, more important to me than a results comparison, I'd like to hear from anybody who has used many sonnars. Impressions, perceptions, tendencies, strengths, weaknesses, differences, recommendations, etc.. MFLensers can share their unique experiences looking through many lenses. Although illustrative results would be fantastic. Now my lens acquisition fever is aroused Embarassed


As I've stated in the thread it was from (http://forum.mflenses.com/steinheil-quinon-50mm-f-2-0-m42-sonnar-design-on-a7rii-t84674.html) even though I don't have too much experience with Sonnar-type lenses, I like some of those a lot. I'm sure many here have tried many more Sonnar & Ernostar-design lenses and hope they'll share their impressions and - if possible - some sample shots as well.

Here are some of my Sonnars:

Braun Ultralit PL 90 mm f/2.4 MC
One of my favorite projection lenses. I think this is a sonnar-like design, but perhaps I'm wrong on that one...


Ultralit grass by simple.joy, on Flickr

Feeling punny today? by simple.joy, on Flickr

Cut-the-pillars by simple.joy, on Flickr


Carl Zeiss S-Sonnar 62 mm f/2.5
A magnificent macro lens. Like it very much because of its nice focal length, rendering & its interesting aperture shape.

Shoot for the stars! by simple.joy, on Flickr

So close, yet out o'range! by simple.joy, on Flickr

Heaven and earth and the green inbetween by simple.joy, on Flickr

Tranquil-shot by simple.joy, on Flickr

Red-orical question by simple.joy, on Flickr

Carl Zeiss Sonnar 50 mm f/1.5 (Burke & James M42 mount)
Not very sharp wide open and limited by its mount, but it got a wonderful rendering and does unexpected things with light.


Music bends reality… by simple.joy, on Flickr

B&W, for crying out loud by simple.joy, on Flickr

Light snack by simple.joy, on Flickr

Second hand halo by simple.joy, on Flickr

Let light play by simple.joy, on Flickr

Last edited by simple.joy on Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:32 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like 1

I would suggest include Ernostar too as both Ernostar and Sonnar are similar and they are both invented by Ludwig Bertele.

Chart from http://forum.mflenses.com/list-of-lens-diagrams-triplets-planars-and-hybrid-lenses-t22934.html


I like all the Ernostar / Sonnar lenses I have tired. My most used ones are Zeiss Opton 50/1.5 and Jupiter-9.

Last edited by calvin83 on Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:40 am; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
Like 1

I would suggest include Ernostar too as both Ernostar and Sonnar are similar and they are both invented by Ludwig Bertele.

Chart from http://forum.mflenses.com/list-of-lens-diagrams-triplets-planars-and-hybrid-lenses-t22934.html


Thanks - good idea! Changed the title to reflect that. What are some widely known Ernostar design lenses? I've never looked into that to be honest...


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:

Thanks - good idea! Changed the title to reflect that. What are some widely known Ernostar design lenses? I've never looked into that to be honest...

You can see a list of lenses in the chart above. I would also include Komura too as Komura like to use Ernostar on their telephotos lenses.


Source: https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/01662/01662.pdf


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Your favorite Sonnar/Ernostar-type lenses Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:

... I don't have too much experience with Sonnar-type lenses, I like some of those a lot. I'm sure many here have tried many more Sonnar & Ernostar-design lenses and hope they'll share their impressions and - if possible - some sample shots as well.


Just very few of my lenses are actual Sonnars. Back in 2011 (when I was writing for the Sony Fotospiegel four articles about the classical Zeiss lenses) I was lucky to collect a few original Zeiss Sonnars including two samples of the CZJ 1.5/5cm, the CZJ and Zeiss Opton 2/5cm, the Zeiss Oberkochen 2/85mm, the CZJ 4/13.5 cm and the CJZ 2.8/180mm. Later on I got also the CZJ Sonnar 4/30cm, a CZJ 4/135mm, and a Zeiss Oberkochen 5.6/250mm (for Hasselblad), as well as several Japanese and Russian Sonnar copies / derivatives (mainly 135mm, but also 100mm). Examples are the Jupiter 4/135mm, the Canon FL & early FD 3.5/135mm, the early Nikkor 3.5/135mm, the Topcor RE 2.8/100mm and probably also a dubious Elicar 2.8/100mm. And of course the famous Nikkor-P Auto 2.5/10.5cm!

Some of the early original Bertele-Sonnars from the 1930s have a distinctive rendering - especially the 1.5/5cm. To a lower degree that's also true for the CZJ 4/13.5cm, the Zeiss Oberkochen 2/8.5cm and the CZJ 2.8/180mm. The Topcor and the Elicar 2.8/100mm have also some typical Sonnar properties. Others such as the Canon FL 3.5/135mm are pretty much indistingiuishable from corresponding non-Sonnar designs. And a Nikkor 1.8/105mm (Xenora-type) has as much or even more "glow" as any of the Sonnars mentioned above. I certainly wouldn't be able to classify a given photography as "Sonnar" or "non-Sonnar" ...

That said, this will be fun thread - especially since "simple joy" is contributing: Excellent images, as always! Thx for sharing Smile

S


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Great images Simple Joy! These lenses shine in your hands.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Sonnar 50/1.5 is my favorite (Jupiter 3 in Soviet)


Jupiter 3(1952) - Sonnar V1 (1932)

CZJ 50/1.5 Sonnar (1932)




Jupiter 3 (1952)




PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Your favorite Sonnar/Ernostar-type lenses Reply with quote
Calvin83 wrote:

You can see a list of lenses in the chart above. I would also include Komura too as Komura like to use Ernostar on their telephotos lenses.


Oh, yeah - thanks! On a quick glance I thought I didn't notice any lenses, but I've taken a closer look and actually seen, that I know a couple and own one or two. Didn't know the Helioplan 40 mm f/4.5 is an Ernostar... thought that might be a Dialyte or something similar because of the enlarging lenses with the same name.

stevemark wrote:


Just very few of my lenses are actual Sonnars. Back in 2011 (when I was writing for the Sony Fotospiegel four articles about the classical Zeiss lenses) I was lucky to collect a few original Zeiss Sonnars including two samples of the CZJ 1.5/5cm, the CZJ and Zeiss Opton 2/5cm, the Zeiss Oberkochen 2/85mm, the CZJ 4/13.5 cm and the CJZ 2.8/180mm. Later on I got also the CZJ Sonnar 4/30cm, a CZJ 4/135mm, and a Zeiss Oberkochen 5.6/250mm (for Hasselblad), as well as several Japanese and Russian Sonnar copies / derivatives (mainly 135mm, but also 100mm). Examples are the Jupiter 4/135mm, the Canon FL & early FD 3.5/135mm, the early Nikkor 3.5/135mm, the Topcor RE 2.8/100mm and probably also a dubious Elicar 2.8/100mm. And of course the famous Nikkor-P Auto 2.5/10.5cm!

Some of the early original Bertele-Sonnars from the 1930s have a distinctive rendering - especially the 1.5/5cm. To a lower degree that's also true for the CZJ 4/13.5cm, the Zeiss Oberkochen 2/8.5cm and the CZJ 2.8/180mm. The Topcor and the Elicar 2.8/100mm have also some typical Sonnar properties. Others such as the Canon FL 3.5/135mm are pretty much indistingiuishable from corresponding non-Sonnar designs. And a Nikkor 1.8/105mm (Xenora-type) has as much or even more "glow" as any of the Sonnars mentioned above. I certainly wouldn't be able to classify a given photography as "Sonnar" or "non-Sonnar" ...

That said, this will be fun thread - especially since "simple joy" is contributing: Excellent images, as always! Thx for sharing Smile

S


Thanks a lot for the interesting information and your kind words - glad you enjoy some of the shots!

I wouldn't be able to say that "Sonnar rendering" has a specific quality which is easily recognizable, but I'm not good with those things in general, so that's probably no good indication for anything. 😅 A couple of the ones I've tried so far have a very smooth rendering though, at least at a certain magnifcations, like the one I'm going to add, which I didn't even know it was a Sonnar-like before I've read it in the chart above...

titrisol70 wrote:
The Sonnar 50/1.5 is my favorite (Jupiter 3 in Soviet)

Jupiter 3 (1952)




Great shots! 👍 Love this one in particular... has a beautiful look.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So as mentioned above, here's one I didn't know was an Ernostar-derivative, the

Meyer Primoplan 58 mm f/1.9



Light … outside and inside by simple.joy, on Flickr

Gotta hand it to the rain: it feels amazing! by simple.joy, on Flickr

Small budget Christmas tree by simple.joy, on Flickr

Costs a pretty penny, but is worth every cent by simple.joy, on Flickr

Rain: embrace with grace by simple.joy, on Flickr

Last edited by simple.joy on Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
simple.joy wrote:

Thanks - good idea! Changed the title to reflect that. What are some widely known Ernostar design lenses? I've never looked into that to be honest...

You can see a list of lenses in the chart above. I would also include Komura too as Komura like to use Ernostar on their telephotos lenses.


Source: https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/01662/01662.pdf


I have komura 100mm 1.8 supposed to be ernostar also, never ever seen the 85mm 1.4; was there any 50 FL with komura?


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Upiter-9 f/2.0

f/2.0



Last edited by LittleAlex on Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pentacon Auto MC 135mm F2.8 (sonnar)


F/2.8:



F/8.0



PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Upiter-8 f/2.0

f/2.0



PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kiddo wrote:

I have komura 100mm 1.8 supposed to be ernostar also, never ever seen the 85mm 1.4; was there any 50 FL with komura?

Yes, the 100/1.8 is also an ernostar. Komura did not made any 50mm lens for 35mm cameras but they do made a 50mm enlarger https://www.photocornucopia.com/1059.html .


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, definitely the Meyer Primoplan 1.9/58
#1


Also, Jupiter 3 - 5cm f1.5
#1


And most of the Komura short tele lenses
OH


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:03 am    Post subject: Canon FD 135mm 2.5 is my favorite Reply with quote
Instead of that choice I could select an original Ernostar 12,5cm 1.8 (with a custom made Mamiya 645 adapter) or the obscure CZ Sonnar 6cm 1.5 LTM. The last is one of the 5.8-6cm Sonnars LTMs, that had decades of myths accompany them, till Marco Cavina unravelled the history of the glass itself but little about their encapsulation. In practice the lens is quite soft and flares easily.

The Canon FD 135mm 2.5 that I bought in the early 70's with my first salary, has been used a long time with an an FTb QL and an AE1. Then nearly two decades archived till I had it converted to EF mount for a 5DII and the MC-11 smart adapter afterwards. Sold the other FL and FD lenses but kept that one. It is nearly the heaviest vintage 135mm that exists so for trips not appropriate.
The lens cross cut diagram on MIR is hard to interpret but a more abstract one shows the Ernostar origin:
Kind of Enhanced Ernostar I would say.
Searching for the IQ of the Voigtlaender Color Heliar 75mm 2.5 (by the way a hybrid of Dynar and Hektor, so a full-blooded descendant of the Triplet) I came across a test of the Canon FD 135mm 2.5 on Sony FF. Not bad at all on FF: https://opticallimits.com/sonyalphaff/1161-canon135f25


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Your favorite Sonnar/Ernostar-type lenses Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:


Feeling punny today? by simple.joy, on Flickr



Oh my god what a cute bunny Tuzki with lens
I won't be original - Primoplan 58/1.9 and Jupiter-3 (a new version - Lomography New Jupiter 3+)


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Your favorite Sonnar/Ernostar-type lenses Reply with quote
D. P. wrote:
simple.joy wrote:


Feeling punny today? by simple.joy, on Flickr



Oh my god what a cute bunny Tuzki with lens


Yes, indeed! It's one of two siblings and they're great. Here's the other (but I'm afraid it's not a Sonnar/Ernostar lens I took this with 😅):
Humans around Easter... still don't quite get them! by simple.joy, on Flickr

D. P. wrote:

I won't be original - Primoplan 58/1.9 and Jupiter-3 (a new version - Lomography New Jupiter 3+)


Even if they've already been mentioned, it would be great if you showed some shots - I certainly always really appreciate your wonderful captures! 👍


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Your favorite Sonnar/Ernostar-type lenses Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:

Even if they've already been mentioned, it would be great if you showed some shots - I certainly always really appreciate your wonderful captures! 👍


Thanks for the nice words)
I am not at home at the moment. As soon as I return from the trip, I will immediately show examples from Primoplan (I have a pre-war brass version) and Jupiter-3.
Once upon a time I had a Jupiter-8 (a Russian copy of the Zeiss Sonnar 50/2) - also a pretty good lens. Especially considering its price.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I risk getting criticism from Canon fans, but...
I shot with Jupiter-8 (price $ 10) and Canon LTM 50/0.95 (price $ 3000) - the difference in results was minimal. Yes, different bokeh. But in general - I was very disappointed in the Canon lens.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D. P. wrote:
I risk getting criticism from Canon fans, but...
I shot with Jupiter-8 (price $ 10) and Canon LTM 50/0.95 (price $ 3000) - the difference in results was minimal. Yes, different bokeh. But in general - I was very disappointed in the Canon lens.


This partly may be related to a particular property of digital sensors.

While analogue film does "accept" light even if it arrives at a very steep angle, most digital sensors are suppressing these light rays (not speaking here about sensor stacks, but really about the sensor surface itself). Thus your 0.95/50 might become more of a "1.4/50" or so simply because the more oblique rays will nor teally really reach the pixels ... should be less of an issue with back-illuminated sensors, but I have no practical experience with ultrafast lenses at all ...

S


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
D. P. wrote:
I risk getting criticism from Canon fans, but...
I shot with Jupiter-8 (price $ 10) and Canon LTM 50/0.95 (price $ 3000) - the difference in results was minimal. Yes, different bokeh. But in general - I was very disappointed in the Canon lens.


This partly may be related to a particular property of digital sensors.

While analogue film does "accept" light even if it arrives at a very steep angle, most digital sensors are suppressing these light rays (not speaking here about sensor stacks, but really about the sensor surface itself). Thus your 0.95/50 might become more of a "1.4/50" or so simply because the more oblique rays will nor teally really reach the pixels ... should be less of an issue with back-illuminated sensors, but I have no practical experience with ultrafast lenses at all ...

S


Yes, you are of course right. The digital age has made its own adjustments.
I had a lot of fast lenses, but, oddly enough, I liked only one - cheap SLR Magic CINE II 50/1.1.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am a fan of the helioplan 40mm 4.5.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
jamaeolus wrote:
I am a fan of the helioplan 40mm 4.5.


Very nice, thanks! I've seen that you've shared some images here in the past:
http://forum.mflenses.com/meyer-optik-helioplan-40mm-4-5-on-a7ii-t79386.html

If you have any additional ones, I would be very interested to see them. I've got that lens as well but never really used it apart from shooting another lens... Will need to change that soon, if it comes as highly recommended!


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Canon 50mm F0.95 wide-open, first time I used it on my Canon 7:



Canon 50mm F0.95 wide-open on my Nikon Z5, first time using that combo:



ISO 6400, 1/100th, F0.95.



F0.95 gives two stops advantage over a J-8. Very narrow DOF, not an easy lens to use.

This is a double-Gauss design, not a Sonnar.
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