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The Big Sankyo Kohki/Komura Thread
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cyberjunkie wrote:
. . .
Knowing the number of groups, not just elements, would help a lot.



Happy New Year ! Smile

©1963 brochure :


#1


#2


#3


#4


#5


#6


#7


#8


#9


#10


#11



Tim


PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!


PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you Tim, that is a valuable resource.
Interesting that the 105mm f3.5 LTM isn't mentioned there, and is supposedly a five element design.
Others are quite intriguing
Tom


PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!


Oldhand wrote:
Thank you Tim, that is a valuable resource.
Interesting that the 105mm f3.5 LTM isn't mentioned there, and is supposedly a five element design.
Others are quite intriguing
Tom



Welcome Turtle


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 1963 catalog is a GREAT addiction to this thread! It answers a lot of questions and calls for a couple new ones.
The 28mm 1:3.5 in UNI AUTO mount is probably different from the almost symmetrical 6-elements design I had already posted. The lens with the same optical layout that is at the start of the 1963 catalog is a rangefinder lens, with no retrofocus design. I believe the SLR version to be different.
It would be great to find a similar catalog from the early seventies. It would make many things much clearer.
Another question I can't answer: are the fixed-mount 3.5/135mm all triplets, and the UNI versions all 5-elements?
The Cameraeccentric catalog reports the 3.5/135mm as 5-elements, just like the f/2.8 version, while the 1963 catalog, that very likely predates the Cameraeccentric one, reports that both the rangefinder and SLR versions of the 3.5/135mm were triplets.

EDIT:
found the info I overlooked, the 3.5/28mm Auto is in fact an 8-elements design.
So Komura sold at the same time two versions of the 3.5/28mm. One is UNI mount, and has 6 elements like the rangefinder one. The other has UNI AUTO mount, and has a modern 8-elements design.


Please surprise us again with more scans of old leaflets, or with links to Web pages with interesting info.

Wish you all a relaxed, fulfilling new year
Paolo

Last edited by cyberjunkie on Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:58 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cyberjunkie wrote:

Another question I can't answer: are the fixed-mount 3.5/135mm all triplets, and the UNI versions all 5-elements?
The Cameraeccentric catalog reports the 3.5/135mm as 5-elements, just like the f/2.8 version, while the 1963 catalog, that very likely predates the Cameraeccentric one, reports that both the rangefinder and SLR versions of the 3.5/135mm were triplets.

Please surprise us again with more scans of old leaflets, or with links to Web pages with interesting info.

Wish you all a relaxed, fulfilling new year
Paolo


I have both the 135/3.5 and the 105/3.5 RF lenses, and I believe them to be triplets.
They are both very good triplets mind you.
Tom


PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject: Fast Komura's ad Reply with quote


PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another post will follow soon.
I am trying to investigate about two different matters.
One is the relationship between Komura and Acall. It seems clear that W Acall and Super Acall lenses in LTM mount were made by Komura. I have no idea if there is any relationship with Kyoei Acall ones. Trying to find photos that could prove (or disprove) it.
The other thing is the possible affinity between the UNI mount and the 47mm interchangeable screwmount used by Tokina. Both have the same diameter, but I have no idea if the register is the same. I have no lenses with Tokina M47 mount... so I'm asking for your help Smile


EDIT:
The isssue of the provenance of Kyoei/Acall lenses is a very complex one.
While I have seen many lenses marked either Kyoei Acall, W Acall or Super Acall that were clearly Komura-made, I have a Soligor with serial starting with KA (which I interpreted as Kyoei Acall) that looks very much Kuribayashi/Petri. The same lens was also sold marked Kyoei Acall (see marcocavina.com site).
Though there are Keyoei Acall lenses that look neither Komura nor Kuribayashi.
See this Kyoei Acall f3.5 135mm I just found on eBay.
It screams Hitoh (Higon). Look at the typical reference mark (round, in red, surrounded on three sides by a white square):



I have seen the same reference mark only on Itoh lenses, marked as Higon or under other brands... the last being a Tele Astra 3.5/135mm in Nikon rangefinder mount.

Last edited by cyberjunkie on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like 1 small Thank you!


PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well i've got the 35 2.5 and 100 1.8 ,they come with a ring mount that can be exchanged . The focus on both and mechanics are soooo smooth.....i should try 'em up one of these days


PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
> Another issue I could not come up with is the existence of rebranded Komura-made optics.
(Cut from a post above)

I picked up a "Bitco Super Vemar" 135mm F3.5 in Leica mount, 46mm filter ring. It is identical to the 135/3.5 Super-Acall, so add another Komura Rebrand to the list. "Bitco"... this must be their brand designed for Digital Cameras.

This lens needed a lot of work, including relubing the helical. I had to mount the optical barrel into a spare Komura focus mount. The two halves of the helical would not go back together: until I widened the grooves. Advice: do not separate the helical to relube, the metal is soft and easily damaged. I did manage to re-assemble the original focus mount that came with the lens- but the one I had is smoother.

I also picked up the Komura 105/3.5 in Leica Mount. The focus is way off on this lens, the optical barrel stubbornly refuses to come out. Focus is smooth. I'm going to use a shim between an M-Mount adapter and lens to correct the focus. This should work as RF agreement and actual focus are both off, both close-focus.

Picked up a long time ago- Leica mount Komura 200/4.5. Finally picked up a 35-200 zoom-finder for it.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fiftyonepointsix wrote:
> Another issue I could not come up with is the existence of rebranded Komura-made optics.
(Cut from a post above)

I picked up a "Bitco Super Vemar" 135mm F3.5 in Leica mount, 46mm filter ring. It is identical to the 135/3.5 Super-Acall, so add another Komura Rebrand to the list. "Bitco"... this must be their brand designed for Digital Cameras.


The kind of Komura lenses sold under Kyoei/Acall brand (and some other vendor brands as Bitco) seem to be more common in the latter versions than in the former.
The partly "silver" barrel (likely nickel plated brass) is not very common in Komura brand, at least from the (many) pictures I have seen.
Komura's LTM lenses are more common in all-black.
Considering the many iterations of barrel versions seen in other brands (like Enna and Isco for example), it's likely that the mostly plated barrel style predated the all-black one (which was followed in some brands by zebra versions).
It's not a rule though. Enna latest barrel style returned to (crinkled) all-black.
Would be interesting to have more catalogs spread over a longer period of time...


PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was able to get the 105mm F3.5 Komura apart: construction is the same as the chrome/black 135mm F3.5. The focus ring is on two parts, unscrewing them allows the outer helical to be unscrewed and accessed. Following lessons learned, I did not separate them. The old black grease was extermely thick, I used acetone to clean the helicals. Relubed with white lithium grease, very smooth now.

The focus is off, 4.5m RF reading when actual focus using a TTL viewer is 5m. The focus mount is the problem- it is too long and would have to be ground down to bring the optics in close-enough to the image plane to agree with the RF. I've done that on a 9cm F4 Elmar. I could also move the rear element in closer to the image plane using a secondary/homemade shim. OR- I will try adding a stand-off between the lens and an M-Mount adapter. This works as the RF calibration will change much faster than the actual focus. The RF calibration is a bit off- the actual target is much closer to what the TTL viewer indicates. All taps align with set screws, so the lens was not taken apart and re-assembled incorrectly. This came from the factory "a bit off".


PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is true that some good komura lens have been made around 60's , but it is amazing the quality of the mechanics,grease used in so many lenses ,like Septon DKL, Rokkor 55 1.7 ,komura etc. The few lenses i've got with stiff focus like Rokkor MD, helios ,do have better coatings but the smooth focus disapeared,so it is clear that there have been improvements between the 55-1975 in coatings (probably glass to), but weren't all positive though.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Found this Telesar 1:2.8 35mm in Exakta mount.
Could be a T-mount, which would probably rule out any affinity with Komura lenses, but there is something Komura-esque in the way it looks:-)
The "K" at the END of the serial number caught my attention.
What do you think?
Any of you owns anything similar?





PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cyberjunkie wrote:
Found this Telesar 1:2.8 35mm in Exakta mount.
Could be a T-mount, which would probably rule out any affinity with Komura lenses, but there is something Komura-esque in the way it looks:-)
The "K" at the END of the serial number caught my attention.
What do you think?
Any of you owns anything similar?





My komura 35mm 2.5 looks pretty much the same, it has maybe 10 blades? And of course double diafragm ring


PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
SANKYO KOHKI JAPAN W-KOMURA f=35mm 1:2.5 it's got a longer focus barrel and different coloured numbers un barrel ,besides ,the3 same lens. Diameter 55mm. Mine is nikon mount,even though the mount can be changed


PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another Komura rebrand:

Bittco Super Vemar 1:3.5 135mm LTM


Interestingly, more or less at the same time, another Bittco Super Vemar is clearly Sankor/Nissin made:

Bittco Super Vemar 1:3.5 135mm M42



P.S.
The last three lenses are no mine. I found the pictures online. Copyright belongs to the original poster.
I decided to post the photos because there are not many Komura rebrands. I find the matter interesting.

To add more uncertainty to the issue of Komura rebranding, I found this page (that deals with Nicca/Yashica rangefinder cameras):
http://www.yashicatlr.com/YE&YF.html
According to the author of the page, Kyoei was probably formed by former Komura employees. He also points to some minimal differences between Kyoei Acall and the almost identical variant sold as Komura. If Kyoei Optical really manufactured Acall lenses, they either copied Komura models or had some kind of cooperation agreement. IMHO the distance scale differences, with substantially identical barrel construction, are just minor details, that don't confirm the theory of the writer. If Acall and Bittco lenses were not rebrands, they were practically knock-off's (made under some kind of agreement/contract). Of course mine is just an hypothesis based on plain old common sense...


PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cyberjunkie wrote:
. . .
The other thing is the possible affinity between the UNI mount and the 47mm interchangeable screwmount used by Tokina. Both have the same diameter, but I have no idea if the register is the same. I have no lenses with Tokina M47 mount... so I'm asking for your help Smile


Based on two lenses I measured, the mounts are different.

My Komura 135 f/2.8's Uni. mount is approximately 48mm wide with a .75mm thread pitch.
And my (Tokina made) Vemar 135 f/2.8's mount is 47mm wide with a .8mm thread pitch.

My measuring tools aren't the best, but I believe they're essentially accurate. And just to be sure, I tried to fit the Vemar's 47mm adapter onto the Komura mount, but the Vemar adapter was too narrow. And, yes, the Uni. adapter was too wide for the Vemar/Tokina mount. Smile



#1


Tim


PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
55 wrote:
cyberjunkie wrote:
. . .
The other thing is the possible affinity between the UNI mount and the 47mm interchangeable screwmount used by Tokina. Both have the same diameter, but I have no idea if the register is the same. I have no lenses with Tokina M47 mount... so I'm asking for your help Smile


Based on two lenses I measured, the mounts are different.

My Komura 135 f/2.8's Uni. mount is approximately 48mm wide with a .75mm thread pitch.
And my (Tokina made) Vemar 135 f/2.8's mount is 47mm wide with a .8mm thread pitch.

My measuring tools aren't the best, but I believe they're essentially accurate. And just to be sure, I tried to fit the Vemar's 47mm adapter onto the Komura mount, but the Vemar adapter was too narrow. And, yes, the Uni. adapter was too wide for the Vemar/Tokina mount.


Very useful post.
Thanks.

It happens that I decided to put my posts on pause because of this issue.
Even non-UNI Komura lenses (those called fixed mount) seem to have a kind of removable ring.
For my own benefit, and to give correct information to other forum members, I decided to investigate if it's actually possible to exchange mounts.
Having found lenses from other makers that have interchangeable mounts that don't conform to the T-mount specs, I decided to order a cheap chinese instrument to measure the thread pitch. It's the metric one, so it won't work with british lenses. Maybe I have one Withworth pitch meter in Italy, I'll check in due time Smile
By the way, I have a few preset lenses (not Komura) in the "right" mount (M42) that seem to have an adapter that does not look T-mount.
I didn't have screwdrivers under 1mm for some very small set screws. Now I got a set of watchmaker's screwdrivers, so I can check.
I am looking forward to share thread pitch and register of the few lenses I have with me.

Two more thing that are Komura specific:
I have seen UNI mounts with no set screws, that can be grabbed and unscrewed.
In picture I have seen what looks to be a UNI mount that has at least one radial set screw.
I also own myself a Komura 3.5/200mm in M42 mount that has a UNI mount with set screws on the flat part of the mount, facing the camera. No matter how much I force, the UNI mount doesn't come off, so I guess those screws need to be un-tightened to remove the mount.
I have also seen a nice Komura 2/105mm in Contax rangefinder mount. The mount itself is held by three set screws, so it might be removable. I am afraid the rangefinder coupling would get in the way, trying to adapt it to SLR cameras, but I'm still curious.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Talking of Kyoei Acall made by Komura = YES, Kyoei Acall made by Komura = NO,
I just won another Acall 3.5/135mm.
The other I have is a Super Acall in LTM mount, with original accessory finder.
The seller advertised the lens below as Leica mount, but I have serious doubts.
1) It has a preset ring
2) I don't see the rangefinder coupling
MAYBE it's M42. What do you think?
The bent filter ring that sits on top of the lens is not uncommon. I have seen it on other Acall lenses.
My best guess is that it could be a Series to regular filter adapter





PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is not Leica mount- the rear element is too close to the mount. Probably M42 mount.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cyberjunkie wrote:

Very useful post.
Thanks.

You're welcome.


cyberjunkie wrote:
It happens that I decided to put my posts on pause because of this issue. . .
. . .I decided to order a cheap chinese instrument to measure the thread pitch.

I just recently bought my own thread pitch gauge. And I've found I need a magnifying glass to get close enough to see clearly because the differences in pitch can be so subtle.


cyberjunkie wrote:
I am looking forward to share thread pitch and register of the few lenses I have with me. . .

Yes, I'd be interested to hear what you discover.



Tim


PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not mentioned so far in this thread:
Sankyo Koki Komura 105mm f2.8
Shorter than the 105mm f2.5
T


#1


#2


PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
>Not mentioned so far in this thread:
>Sankyo Koki Komura 105mm f2.8
>Shorter than the 105mm f2.5
>T


Hi there!
Some time has passed since this thread has last received any post...
Any new interesting contribution to the topic? I have been collecting info on the Komura 105mm f2.8 to write a little 'homework' about it. And I have been collecting and sorting out serials and characteristics of each one of them I stumbled upon on the net and around (I own three of them). The 105mm for SRL cameras is a short lived model which survives in not many copies. Can I ask the serial of the model posted above?

Cheers.

Michele
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