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notebook for video editing?!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject: notebook for video editing?! Reply with quote

video files of 'our' digital still cameras are quite huge and editing, specially rendering them need a lot of computing power. My basic Lenovo with an i3 M380 processor, 4GB Ram and an Nvidia GeForce 310M 'in theory' can render the videos I take with my Sony NEX5N, but then again not really: Within a few minutes the notebook will overheat and turn off automatically. ( Recently I 'had' to render a few videos someone wanted, for that I placed my notebook on top of ice cubes which almost doubled the minutes before shutting down, but 5 minutes was max still..)

therefoe my question: Which specifications does a notebook need to be able to render videos of e.g. a NEX5N without problems? If I buy a new notebook I should plan ahead, so better even, to be able to render videos taken with a Sony A7? Better even recommendations of specific models and best if it was not all too expensive but rel. cheap.

there should be more specific forums to ask this, recommendations where else better to ask are most welcome too.

thank you, andreas


PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overheat is caused by the lost efficiency of the heat sink(dusting in the heat sink fin, aging of the heat conduction material between the fan and heat sink and fail of the fan), component failure(less likely) or design fault(very unlikely). Sometime, older drivers may also need to be updated to be compatible for newer software. You will need to get it fixed yourself or send it for repair.


PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest an i7 with 8gb RAM, at least: the avchd files require quite some work to decode/transcode. A solution that sometimes worked for me is to convert all the footage in a less compressed format (or not compressed at all) so to require less work from CPU/ram. Obviously this complicates the workflow a little, and takes up a lot of disk space.
Also, hard drive speed is quite important.


I work as a freelance video editor, and do half of my work on a laptop.
I switched from Windows to a MacBook Pro some years ago (mostly because I needed apple's Final Cut Pro), and I don't think I will get back any time soon: also, with the kind of use I make, my MacBooks lasted averagely twice longer than my pc's (4years vs 2), so not really more expensive in the end.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you very much Calvin and Aanything Smile

not so sure if I want to change to apple, though this suggestion is coming up again and again. Good knowledge Calvin and I am sure you are right, but I believe that trying to repair my 2+ year old basic notebook won't make sense. Once I had it's fan cleaned, helped a little bit but I think that it already had the issue, possibly less severe, when new.

From what I also have gathered elsewhere on the net I think that the suggestion of a i7 processor with 8GB Ram is perfect. However I have been wondering if this is all it takes. This because I guess that the physical layout, the cooling might play an important role also and therefore was curious if anyone could suggest a certain model. Or am I wrong here? And should I pay attention to the specifications of the grafic card?

At this site where one can search noteboook with many filters I have chosen so far 15" monitor, i7 processor and 8GB RAM, that returns 130 notebooks: http://www.idealo.co.uk/filter/3751F853684-1933568-2111689/laptops.html#RAM So far again it's Lenovo notebooks that stand out for being the cheapest but there are so many criteria more to further filter the results:
- Would anyone please be so kind and help me to further refine the search? -

thank you again, cheers, andreas


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The graphic card is a little complicated topic.
Some softwares use it to render some effects, others can take advantage of it during normal editing/export through plugins, but these plugins work only with some dedicated cards.
My idea, especially on a laptop, would be to buy a standard gpu and invest more in the CPU, ram and disk, which are always mostly used for standard video work (editing, basic effects, output).
As for the heating, I only had heating problems once, and it was because of a mechanical failure of a component in my acer laptop, so I never really worried about it. But then again, MacBook pro's metal body is great at dissipating heat, and mine went flawlessly through some 20-something hours of after effects renders.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kuuan wrote:
So far again it's Lenovo notebooks that stand out for being the cheapest


if you consider a used/refurbished notebook.. take a look at Fujitsu Celsius Mobile like those:

Click here to see on Ebay.de

Click here to see on Ebay.de


Those mobile workstations are much better options for video editing than a brandnew consumer notebook for the same price!


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The work flow of choosing will be something like this:

1. Give a budget
2. Find all products within your requirements. The requirement should be listed from most important to less important
3. Choose one or two from above

If you need to do video editing, requirement of processing speed is should be one of the important factor. The cheapest latest generation quad core CPU for notebook is Core i7-4702. If you ONLY do trimming, any of the faster i5 can be your choice. 8GB RAM and 750GB hard disk with 7200rmp is a most. You will also need a Full HD 1920x1080 monitor for your editing and preview. GPU is not very important but a Discrete GPU from NVIDIA will be better. Play attention to the build quality and the cooling systems(workstations are the best, some notebooks will allow you to reach the heat sink with a simple cover), slim notebooks without so-so cooling systems should be avoided. You will need at least 3 year warranty(preferable international warranty). Things like keyboard size, video out function should also be considered.

The most important is how much you will pay? Portable workstation will be best but may be too expensive and bulky. A high end consumer notebook will be a good replacement of portable workstation.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you guys once again for your kind help!

Aanything, you really are tempting me with the macbook Wink
ok, understood, grafic card is not as important as big power CPU, ram and disc. What is the name of the fast disc I shold look out for?

Jan your linked notebooks at ebay look very good to me! they just have onebig drawback for me, they come with German keyboard land OS. Even though German is my mother tongue I am really used to only want both English keyboard and OS. One big plus I see with a used notebook, it may come with Win7 and not Win8 which seems to be a pita (?)
also WIN8, but at ebay UK I find e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dell-Inspiron-15R-5537-Laptop-i7-4500U-8GB-1TB-Full-HD-1080p-Win-8-Pro-/281296469335?pt=UK_Computing_Laptops_EH&hash=item417e937d57
or: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lenovo-IdeaPad-Y510p-4th-Gen-i7-4700MQ-FHD-GT750M-2G-8GB-24GB-SSD-1TB-Gaming-1YR-/151272744820?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item23388ee774
and: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dell-Inspiron-15R-5537-Laptop-i7-4500U-8GB-1TB-Full-HD-1080p-Win-8-Pro-/281296469335?pt=UK_Computing_Laptops_EH&hash=item417e937d57
various Dells, variations of the '15R', look quite good to me, I believe they also are sturdy build and good customer service and the price level seems alright. The only thing I notice is that their harddrives only come at 5400 RPM, but Calvin tells me that 7200 RPM is a must. hm..

Calvin you raise various important points I want to refer to:
budget I hope will be less than 1000 usd.
video editing will not be the main point and I don't much care about speed as long as it is able to do it! However I do carry my notebook with me traveling the world, and I want it to be as light as possible. 15" monitor so far has been my compromise of maximal screen size with minimal size and weight.

Slowly I get an idea, but please bare with me if once again I link the site where I had started to choose and if I ask you again which more search filters I should apply: http://www.idealo.co.uk/filter/3751F853684-1933568-2111689/laptops.html#RAM
e.g. SSD drive? that would drop results from 131 to only 33, but the cheapest now would start at around 1000 pounds, before from around 550..

thank you so much
andreas


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will start with this http://www.idealo.co.uk/cat/3751F750508-997301-1086014-1933568-2111689/laptops.html?param.resultlist.sortKey=minPrice . Pick few models from different brands and paste the spec here. Are you planning to buy in UK? Price will varies from region to region and time to time.

From the above link, it seems the only choice is Lenovo IdeaPad Z510 Exclamation


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin83 wrote:
I will start with this http://www.idealo.co.uk/cat/3751F750508-997301-1086014-1933568-2111689/laptops.html?param.resultlist.sortKey=minPrice . Pick few models from different brands and paste the spec here. Are you planning to buy in UK? Price will varies from region to region and time to time.

From the above link, it seems the only choice is Lenovo IdeaPad Z510 Exclamation


thank you very much for your fast reply Calvin!
and specially for really checking these search results at idealo.co.uk!
I see you did not choose 7200 RPM. So maybe I don't necessarily 'need' it?

yes, in this search the Lenovo Z510 looks good! I kind of like Lenovos, from my expereince I believe that they have better build quality and often keyboard than other cheapos. from ebay.co.uk refurbished Dells come up a lot too, they are built even better, I think.
yes, I plan to buy from the UK because I really prefer English keyboard and OS, and if importing to Austria from the U.K. I should not have to pay duties which I would have to if bought from e.g. US or Hongkong. However I shall have to see if the seller ships to Austria.

and: there is no hurry yet, I only shall buy earliest once i return to Austria which is in one month from now. So actually I am just gathering info now and will have to search again then. any more info now much appreciated, but I better would only paste specs here once searching again to buy


Last edited by kuuan on Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I haven't spoke about the retina display yet!
No seriously, probably for the kind of use you will do the price difference between a good PC and a MacBookPro will not be justified: mine is switched on and running video editing softwares 12 hours a day, so the build quality difference really plays a significant role.

Back to disk speed: I think a 7200rpm disk will most likely do the job, SSD's are great, but small and expensive so not really an optimal solution.
Another thing you may want to look for are FireWire 800 ports, as video footage can take teras of space, and you may end up using external drives. Usb3 are fine as it has a very high transfer rate, but FireWire has the advantage of not draining resources from the CPU when reading/writing while USB does.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try to see some reviews before you purchase. Here is the review for IdeaPad Z510, looks not bad but the monitor quality is not that good?
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-IdeaPad-Z510-Notebook.105627.0.html

If you do not need full HD monitor, there is may be more choice. The hard disk of Z510 is a hybrid hard which 8GB SSD as cache which will help the performance. a 7200rpm hard disk is better but a slim notebook within 3kg many not have the opinion to install it. Also consider if you need a build-in optical drive.

If budget and OS is not a problem, then a Macbook may be better. Wink


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aanything wrote:
And I haven't spoke about the retina display yet!
No seriously, probably for the kind of use you will do the price difference between a good PC and a MacBookPro will not be justified: mine is switched on and running video editing softwares 12 hours a day, so the build quality difference really plays a significant role.

Back to disk speed: I think a 7200rpm disk will most likely do the job, SSD's are great, but small and expensive so not really an optimal solution.
Another thing you may want to look for are FireWire 800 ports, as video footage can take teras of space, and you may end up using external drives. Usb3 are fine as it has a very high transfer rate, but FireWire has the advantage of not draining resources from the CPU when reading/writing while USB does.


oh, very interesting, so SSD not needed, but 7200 RPM is! interesting also the info about the firewire. when I was looking for the notebook I am using now I had been looking for one that has firewire because my old SD tape videocam needed that for transfer, but I had not found any then but had chosen one that had a mini PC card slot for which I had bought an adapter for firewire. Had not known that this still has advantages. that might not have been Firewire 800 though? Most likely I won't get heavily into video though, I just want to be able to play a bit with it, at least
about MacBook I am still doubting, I am really a 100% computer autodidact just clicking the mouse, I am afraid of having to adjust


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin83 wrote:
Try to see some reviews before you purchase. Here is the review for IdeaPad Z510, looks not bad but the monitor quality is not that good?
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-IdeaPad-Z510-Notebook.105627.0.html

If you do not need full HD monitor, there is may be more choice. The hard disk of Z510 is a hybrid hard which 8GB SSD as cache which will help the performance. a 7200rpm hard disk is better but a slim notebook within 3kg many not have the opinion to install it. Also consider if you need a build-in optical drive.

If budget and OS is not a problem, then a Macbook may be better. Wink


oh great Calvin, more learning! hybrid HD with 8GB SSD cache, hm..sound good, so then 7200 RPM not needed.. no idea what a built in optical drive is Embarassed
thank you for the very good suggestion to check reviews and the provided link! yeah. monitor of this Lenovo doesn't get good critics..

man..there was a time I would never had considered anything Sony or Apple, but now using NEX5N and applauding Sony, maybe i will become an apple convert too? Wink I am told that one also can use WIN OS on a MacBook, right? does one have to purchase that extra? any downsides to this?


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kuuan wrote:
calvin83 wrote:
Try to see some reviews before you purchase. Here is the review for IdeaPad Z510, looks not bad but the monitor quality is not that good?
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-IdeaPad-Z510-Notebook.105627.0.html

If you do not need full HD monitor, there is may be more choice. The hard disk of Z510 is a hybrid hard which 8GB SSD as cache which will help the performance. a 7200rpm hard disk is better but a slim notebook within 3kg many not have the opinion to install it. Also consider if you need a build-in optical drive.

If budget and OS is not a problem, then a Macbook may be better. Wink


oh great Calvin, more learning! hybrid HD with 8GB SSD cache, hm..sound good, so then 7200 RPM not needed.. no idea what a built in optical drive is Embarassed

man..there was a time I would never had considered anything Sony or Apple, but now using NEX5N and applauding Sony, maybe i will become an apple convert too? Wink I am told that one also can use WIN OS on a MacBook, right? does one have to purchase that extra? any downsides to this?

Optical drive or optical disc drive can be a DVD or blueray drive.

Here is a brief introduction about how to install windows into a Macbook. Note: You need to purchase a copy of windows at a cost and you probably need an external drive to store your photos and video for a Retina model.
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/guide/windows


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin83 wrote:

Optical drive or optical disc drive can be a DVD or blueray drive.

Here is a brief introduction about how to install windows into a Macbook. Note: You need to purchase a copy of windows at a cost and you probably need an external drive to store your photos and video for a Retina model.
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/guide/windows


thank you again Calvin!
hm..sounds a bit complex and..expensive! browsing from the link to apple you provied I see the cheapest 15" MacBook is 1999 usd. I rather may stay with Lenovo or Dell Rolling Eyes


PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kuuan wrote:
calvin83 wrote:

Optical drive or optical disc drive can be a DVD or blueray drive.

Here is a brief introduction about how to install windows into a Macbook. Note: You need to purchase a copy of windows at a cost and you probably need an external drive to store your photos and video for a Retina model.
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/guide/windows


thank you again Calvin!
hm..sounds a bit complex and..expensive! browsing from the link to apple you provied I see the cheapest 15" MacBook is 1999 usd. I rather may stay with Lenovo or Dell Rolling Eyes

I have some connection with Dell in the past so I will pick Lenovo. The IdeaPad Y510p may be a better choice if you need speed and build quality but it is more heavier (about 6lbs). http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/y-series/y510p . You need to choice between price, processing power, screen size/quality, connectivity, weight and warranty.

Let me know before few of your possible choice before you purchase it.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kuuan wrote:

Jan your linked notebooks at ebay look very good to me! they just have onebig drawback for me, they come with German keyboard land OS.


I'm sure you would get those mobile workstations also with english keyboard layout (or maybe just switch the keyboard). And a Windows 8 update isn't that expensive on ebay.. should fit in your budget too.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you again Jan!
your suggestion of refurbished workbooks / notebooks on ebay is wonderful! made me look and I found quite a number of refurbished notebooks that would fit me very well on ebay.co.uk right now, I may take up your great suggestion but think that better I opt for one with English keyboard and OS offered in the UK

calvin83 wrote:

I have some connection with Dell in the past so I will pick Lenovo. The IdeaPad Y510p may be a better choice if you need speed and build quality but it is more heavier (about 6lbs). http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/y-series/y510p . You need to choice between price, processing power, screen size/quality, connectivity, weight and warranty.

Let me know before few of your possible choice before you purchase it.


Calvin do I understand right that your connection to Dell makes you NOT recommend it? Like someone after having seen the kitchen not recommending a restaurant any more? I always have thought that Dell makes very reliable, durable notebooks rather aimed at professionals, a bit more heavy than others and not of very inspiring design, but tough and reliable. I do like Lenovo though, as mentioned imo they make more sturdy bodies and better keyboards compared to other makers in the same, low price class like Acer, MSI, possibly Asus. ( two corners of the body and then one hinge of the monitor of an MSI I had, they make similar cheap 'gaming' notebooks, had broken after two years of use. there were cables inside that hinge and it had not taken much longer and this notebook had gone beyond repair. The Lenovo I have now still looks alright after two years of same, heavy, almost abusive use )

thank's a tone for the link to the IdeaPad Y510p, I think that you just found the very right notebook for me!! Just also checked a few reviews that sound very good, though one says the monitor is top, while the other says the monitor is a let down (?) Hm.. I wonder how much some review sites are 'bought', still should check more reviews. A question comes up here, only the most expensive model had a anti glare monitor ( 15.6" FHD LED AntiGlare with integrated camera (1920x1080), the first down costing over 100 usd less has a '15.6" FHD LED Glossy Wedge (1920x1080) and this is the only difference. I wonder how much of a difference these 2 monitors make, will try to get reviews on the net.

best greetings and regards, andreas


PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I support Lenovo because I am a Chinese. Wink

Which model you are using now? Only the high end models are tough and relatively reliable. My old Thinkpad survived more than 10 years. I use it as a spare computer now.

Business models or high end consumer models will feature anti glare screen. If you cannot find a anti glare within your budget, you can try high quality Anti-Glare Screen Protector. These protectors may make the screen look like little fuzzy but they do help reduce reflection.

Warranty is very important IMHO. If you plan to use it three years, you must purchase three years warranty(check for international warranty terms). Additional warranty against accidental damage can be purchased if you need extra protection(Dell call it Accidental Damage Service and Lenovo call it Accidental Damage Protection).

Go to a shop and check it out if possible. Lenovo should be pretty common in many large department or electronic store.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember to check out the battery life of the notebook.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin83 wrote:
I support Lenovo because I am a Chinese. Wink

Which model you are using now? Only the high end models are tough and relatively reliable. My old Thinkpad survived more than 10 years. I use it as a spare computer now.

Business models or high end consumer models will feature anti glare screen. If you cannot find a anti glare within your budget, you can try high quality Anti-Glare Screen Protector. These protectors may make the screen look like little fuzzy but they do help reduce reflection.

Warranty is very important IMHO. If you plan to use it three years, you must purchase three years warranty(check for international warranty terms). Additional warranty against accidental damage can be purchased if you need extra protection(Dell call it Accidental Damage Service and Lenovo call it Accidental Damage Protection).

Go to a shop and check it out if possible. Lenovo should be pretty common in many large department or electronic store.


Chinese..Calvin how about a cup of tea? two years ago in China near the border to Vietnam the tea table in the center of company, instead of beer cans, had much impressed me Wink

Certainly Lenovo makes high end notebooks but mine is a budget line G560: http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookreview/lenovo-g560-review/ I bought good two years ago for under 500usd in Saigon. Display had later been replaced by an unknown, sure also Chinese, panel for some 80usd. Besides for possible video, for editing and viewing my photos any monitor of a 'better' notebook should be a noticable upgrade. still I better make the monitor a top priority, so.. Full HD 1920x1080, better anti glare.

so far never had cared much about warranty but your advice is very sound, good to know that Lenovo offers a scheme! the U.K. Lenovo site however has only two models of the Y510P, none with the anti glare but still they cost 1000 pounds, that's almost 1700usd or almost double the price than those you linked at their store in the US, yikes! http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/ideapad/y-series/y510p/ other U.K. online shops are not all that much cheaper Sad I wonder if I better bought it in Asia, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, Saigon or Singapore..

checking one out in a shop in Austria should be easy, just verified that various bigger retailers there offer it.

mo wrote:
Remember to check out the battery life of the notebook.


thank you Mo for your thoughtful comment! The one on my current notebook now only holds up for some 10 minutes, but actually this hardly disturbes me. Even though I take it around the world I really just use it in a place, at a time, plugged in, my portable home P.C Wink


PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like tea more than beer. Wink

Also take a look at Asus N550JV. A 1920x1080 IPS Non-Glare LCD is avaliable for this model. If you cannot find the Lenovo, this can be a second choice.
https://www.asus.com/Notebooks_Ultrabooks/N550JV/overview/
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Asus-N550JV-CN201H-Notebook.98311.0.html

However, you can only buy it less than $1000 in the US.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/983615-REG/asus_n550jv_db71_15_6_notebook_computer.html

Price of notebooks in Europe should be higher than in Asia because the people in Europe is more rich? Notebooks are cheaper in AU, US and East Asian. Do a research on price at different place and buy whatever it is available. If you buy it at a shop, make sure the shop is reliable.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy I had to buy a cheap notebook for my son, I chose a Toshiba for under $500au the battery only lasts about 2 hrs. I can't wait to see what you buy,will you give a small review?


PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

calvin83 wrote:
I like tea more than beer. Wink

Also take a look at Asus N550JV. A 1920x1080 IPS Non-Glare LCD is avaliable for this model. If you cannot find the Lenovo, this can be a second choice.
https://www.asus.com/Notebooks_Ultrabooks/N550JV/overview/
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Asus-N550JV-CN201H-Notebook.98311.0.html

However, you can only buy it less than $1000 in the US.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/983615-REG/asus_n550jv_db71_15_6_notebook_computer.html

Price of notebooks in Europe should be higher than in Asia because the people in Europe is more rich? Notebooks are cheaper in AU, US and East Asian. Do a research on price at different place and buy whatever it is available. If you buy it at a shop, make sure the shop is reliable.


thank you again Calvin, the Asus looks very nice too!
I don't believe that prices in Europe are higher because people are more rich, it's a different market. taxes and business related costs are higher in Europe though it's not that simple, in the very cheap, budget segment one can buy at internationally competitive prices in Europe, it's the higher segments where the differences are often striking.

considering that I spend most of my time in Asia where I can buy an English notebook at shops anywhere while back in Austria I'd have to buy via internet from the U.K. it actually really shall be better if I bought in Asia again. If for a competitive price it either should be in Singapore or best Hongkong, not the other cities I frequent regularily that I had mentioned before, right?
I won't be able to go to any of these places before returning to Europe in abt. a month though, my only chance would be in Japan. But I don't think that Japan is a good place to buy an English notebook neiter, or is it? A few months later I shall be back in Asia and anytime easily could make a short stopover in Singapore. Or Calvin how about I came to Hongkong, we meet for a cup of tea, then we go take some photos, later go notebook shopping and finally..go party with a few beers? Wink Not joking, if that would be possible for you, you would like that and could spare the time then it certainly would be a most attractive option! To meet you in Hongkong for shared, joyful photography times, what I'd save on the purchase of the computer well may pay for a few memorable days in Hongkong! How does this sound?

best greetings, andreas