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ashy
Joined: 17 Aug 2009
Posts: 21
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 Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: Helios 44-2 58mm f/2 factory-make variations? |
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ashy wrote:
hi guys, 1 more concern 
is't known that which, KMZ, Valdai or MMZ-Belomo make has more consistent quality control or better performance? (coating? overall sharpness?)
thanks guys 
hi guys, I opened a thread not long ago asking for recommendation for 50mm-range prime & decided to go for the SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4 with the Helios 44-2 58mm f/2 in 2nd priority
it turns out that the SMC Tak. is so much rarer than I expected it to be  on the other hand the Helios 44-2 is much much more common & much much cheaper
can anyone please point out the difference in bokeh (I already roughly knew about their sharpness) between the SMC Tak @ f/2 & the Helios 44-2 wide-opened? if I can get the chance to see samples it would be perfect! (I couldn't find any in google  )
thanks a lot in advance
Last edited by ashy on Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:45 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
The Helios-44-2 is based on the Carl Zeiss Jena 58mm f/2 Biotar, so both are famous for the "swirly bokeh". The 50mm f/1.4 Takumar is much more "normal" in that regard.
More on the Helios-44-2 bokeh: http://www.flickr.com/groups/bokeh_/discuss/72157594194993103/
On this forum:
http://forum.mflenses.com/biotar-2-58-vs-helios-44-vs-smc-takumar-1-8-55-t15766,highlight,biotar.html
Oh yes, it was not that hard... Just enter "Helios-44-2 bokeh" into Google's search field and presto! 
_________________
Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 6943
Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
Some of my Helios samples:
http://forum.mflenses.com/yet-another-helios-thread-t19191.html
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 3754
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Bokeh: SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4 vs. Helios 44-2 55mm f/2 |
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estudleon wrote:
| ashy wrote: |
hi guys, I opened a thread not long ago asking for recommendation for 50mm-range prime & decided to go for the SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4 with the Helios 44-2 55mm f/2 in 2nd priority
it turns out that the SMC Tak. is so much rarer than I expected it to be on the other hand the Helios 44-2 is much much more common & much much cheaper
can anyone please point out the difference in bokeh (I already roughly knew about their sharpness) between the SMC Tak @ f/2 & the Helios 44-2 wide-opened? if I can get the chance to see samples it would be perfect! (I couldn't find any in google )
thanks a lot in advance |
Both good in the own places.
I will tell you the same answer that lot of members told me when I asked a similar question here: Get Both!!
The one that you can catch first, do it.
And that was a very good advice for my. I hope that it serves to you too.
_________________
Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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FernandoB12
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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FernandoB12 wrote:
Despite to be a different scenarium, here there are two exemples.
Tak 50mm f1.4
Helios 44M-4 58mm f2.0
_________________
Camera: Nikon D80 Canon 20D Pentax Spotmatic
Manual Lens: Nikkor 24mm f/2.8; Nikkor Ai 50mm f/1.4; Nikkor 50mm f/2.0; Nikkor Micro AI 55mm f/3.5; Nikkor H 85mm f/1.8; Nikkor P.C 105mm f/2.5; Nikkor Q 135mm f/2.8; Nikkor P 180mm f/2.8; Nikon Series E 75~150mm f/3.5;
SMC Takumar 50mm f/1.4; SMC Takumar 55mm f/1.8; Super Takumar 85mm f/1.9; Takumar S-M-C 120mm f/2.8; Takumar S-M-C 200mm f/4; Tele Takumar 300mm f/6.3
Vivitar Series 1 Macro 105mm 2.5
Helios M44-4 58mm f/2; Soligor 350mm f/5.6; Soligor 135mm f/2.8;
AF Lens: AF-S Nikkor 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 G ED; AF Nikkor 70-210mm f/4-5.6;
Last edited by FernandoB12 on Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ashy
Joined: 17 Aug 2009
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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ashy wrote:
thanks guys for the input 
I lurked around & saw some members who actually own both lenses, is anyone kind enough to do a bokeh test @ f/2 both? I know wide-opened both will be prone to bright-edge-OOF-highlight but I can't help to wonder about how does the SMC Tak @ f/2 compare to the Helios 44-2 f/2  thanks again!
EDIT: thanks FernandoB12 |
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Gus Helios
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 144
Location: Cali
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Gus Helios wrote:
Can I just throw another into the mix... The Pentax SMC 55 1.8 can usually be found for a lot cheaper than the SMC 50 1.4 and IMO it is a wonderful option.
I really like all three of these lenses, with the Helios 44M riding on the camera more than the others. And you can not go wrong with any of them. The each have their own look.
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Nothing a shot a jack and some George Jones can't fix - Gus |
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andyw
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
Posts: 624
Location: Surrey. UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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andyw wrote:
Here is an example of my Helios 44 2
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Andy
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ashy
Joined: 17 Aug 2009
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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ashy wrote:
thanks again for the input, actually I'm looking for >8-aperture-blades ones, hence the concern over bokeh rendering |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
I don't think there is a difference between 8-bladed 44-2/44-3 and 13-bladed 44-1. The blades on 44-2 and 44-3 are quite round, so the iris shape is more rounded than on 10-bladed Biotar 58/2.
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(almost) complete list of Helios lenses |
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tkbslc
Joined: 02 Jul 2009
Posts: 194
Location: Utah, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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tkbslc wrote:
The 44M (plain M) has 8 blades, too, and makes nice looking bokeh, I like the A/M switch, too.
Here's a good bokeh sample:
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Canon 30D + some AF and MF lenses |
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egidio
Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 222
Location: slovenia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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egidio wrote:
Both lenses produces great bokeh, but takumar is sharper and produces better colors. Helios has its charm in special creamy bokeh. But since they are almost the same focal lenght I use mostly takumar.
I made some comparison images of both lenses on same subject, both are at f2
takumar:
helios:
www.tilensepic.com/msn/takumar50_14.JPG
www.tilensepic.com/msn/helios_44_2.JPG
*ok, so images are not working nor links to my server, any alternative?
_________________
I use: Flektogon 2.8/20, Flektogon 2.8/35, planar 50mm/1.4, Takumar 1.4/50mm, Takumar 1.9/85, MIR 24H, Mir1v, Industar-50-2, Helios-44-2, Pentacon 2.8/135, cyclop 85 1.5 |
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 6943
Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
I have the 55mm Tak. Very sharp. The Pentacon 50 is next sharpest but often has a slow/stuck iris. Another option is the 50mm Meritar. It's an old preset available in Exakta & M42 mounts. Not fast at F2.9, but very different than the others.
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Casual attendance these days
Last edited by martinsmith99 on Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
| egidio wrote: |
Both lenses produces great bokeh, but takumar is sharper and produces better colors. Helios has its charm in special creamy bokeh. But since they are almost the same focal lenght I use mostly takumar.
I made some comparison images of both lenses on same subject, both are at f2
takumar:
helios:
www.tilensepic.com/msn/takumar50_14.JPG
www.tilensepic.com/msn/helios_44_2.JPG
*ok, so images are not working nor links to my server, any alternative? |
Thanks for the input. But as for the Helios, at least 44-2 was produced for 20 years and in 3 factories. The coating was different in different factories and it changed in time, too. So each model has specific color tint...
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(almost) complete list of Helios lenses |
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tkbslc
Joined: 02 Jul 2009
Posts: 194
Location: Utah, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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tkbslc wrote:
| egidio wrote: |
Both lenses produces great bokeh, but takumar is sharper and produces better colors. Helios has its charm in special creamy bokeh. But since they are almost the same focal lenght I use mostly takumar.
|
Strangely enough, I owned both and favor the Helios.
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Canon 30D + some AF and MF lenses |
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egidio
Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 222
Location: slovenia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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egidio wrote:
which helios 40-2 do you prefer opticaly? Maybe I should try anther one? There's a lot of old really cheap Zenits on our "local ebay" with those lenses.
I tested super takumar 50, helios 55 and canon 24-70L in studio at f11-f16, and all were almost the same.
Helios had little washed out colors, 24-70L had a lot of chromatic aberrations but great colors, takumar was awesome with zero CA
_________________
I use: Flektogon 2.8/20, Flektogon 2.8/35, planar 50mm/1.4, Takumar 1.4/50mm, Takumar 1.9/85, MIR 24H, Mir1v, Industar-50-2, Helios-44-2, Pentacon 2.8/135, cyclop 85 1.5 |
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Excalibur
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 5019
Location: UK
Expire: 2014-04-21
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Excalibur wrote:
| martinsmith99 wrote: |
| I have the 55mm Tak. Very sharp. The Pentacon 50 is next sharpest but often has a slow/stuck iris. Another option is the 50mm Meritar. It's an old preset available in Exakta & M42 mounts. Not fast at F2.9, but very different than the others. |
ermm why does everyone pass over the Meyer Oreston (pentacon).
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Canon A1, AV1, T70 & T90, EOS 300 and EOS300v, Chinon CE and CP-7M. Contax 139, Fuji STX-2, Konica Autoreflex TC, FS-1, FT-1, Minolta X-700, X-300, XD-11, SRT101b, Nikon EM, FM, F4, F90X, Olympus OM2, Pentax S3, Spotmatic, Pentax ME super, Praktica TL 5B, & BC1, , Ricoh KR10super, Yashica T5D, Bronica Etrs, Mamiya RB67 pro AND drum roll:- a Sony Nex 3
.........past gear Tele Rolleiflex and Rollei SL66.
Many lenses from good to excellent. |
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scsambrook
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 2167
Location: Glasgow Scotland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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scsambrook wrote:
The Helioses ( is that indeed the plural?) can be bought so cheaply that the sensible plan must be to buy one and experiment with it. Add whatever else you fancy later ... but be sure to get a Domiplan
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Stephen
Equipment: Pentax DSLR for casual shooting, Lumix G1 and Fuji XE-1 for playing with old lenses, and Leica M8 because I still like the optical rangefinder system. |
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Excalibur
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 5019
Location: UK
Expire: 2014-04-21
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Excalibur wrote:
| scsambrook wrote: |
| The Helioses ( is that indeed the plural?) can be bought so cheaply that the sensible plan must be to buy one and experiment with it. Add whatever else you fancy later ... but be sure to get a Domiplan |
Domiplans are now gifts in cornflake packets.
_________________
Canon A1, AV1, T70 & T90, EOS 300 and EOS300v, Chinon CE and CP-7M. Contax 139, Fuji STX-2, Konica Autoreflex TC, FS-1, FT-1, Minolta X-700, X-300, XD-11, SRT101b, Nikon EM, FM, F4, F90X, Olympus OM2, Pentax S3, Spotmatic, Pentax ME super, Praktica TL 5B, & BC1, , Ricoh KR10super, Yashica T5D, Bronica Etrs, Mamiya RB67 pro AND drum roll:- a Sony Nex 3
.........past gear Tele Rolleiflex and Rollei SL66.
Many lenses from good to excellent. |
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JWH
Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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JWH wrote:
Can't really judge fairly, being new to this all. However the Helios 44M was one reason for me to go get a M42 Adapter and hunt for these lenses. The bokeh was so unique that I just had to have it !
Here's a link to my photo's in the Digital section, maybe it can help. On the other hand, price wise it wouldn't even hurt having both I guess .
Great Afternoon with the Helios. |
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 3754
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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estudleon wrote:
| Excalibur wrote: |
| martinsmith99 wrote: |
| I have the 55mm Tak. Very sharp. The Pentacon 50 is next sharpest but often has a slow/stuck iris. Another option is the 50mm Meritar. It's an old preset available in Exakta & M42 mounts. Not fast at F2.9, but very different than the others. |
ermm why does everyone pass over the Meyer Oreston (pentacon). |
+1
It's very easy to dissamble and clean or repair blades and aperture mechanism.
Takumar - pancolar - pentacon. For me not best 50 mm in M42.
I have S-M-C tak 1,4/50, pancolar 1,8/50, pentacon MC 1,8/50 and Helios 44-3.
The two first are awesome.The pentacon very good.
_________________
Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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ashy
Joined: 17 Aug 2009
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: |
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ashy wrote:
thanks a lot for the comparison shots! is that Super Takumar (6 blades) or S-M-C/SMC Takumar (8 blades)? thanks again |
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ashy
Joined: 17 Aug 2009
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: variations |
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ashy wrote:
hi guys, 1 more concern
is't known that which, KMZ, Valdai or MMZ-Belomo make has more consistent quality control or better performance? (coating? overall sharpness?)
thanks guys |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
I'd prefer MMZ+KMZ over JOV. According to my experience 0xx/00x 44-2 made by KMZ are very good optically - all of the "zero" copies I had in my hands had uniformly sharp edges (not a standard on common versions). However, you can buy 3-5 fo them and keep the best one - it's easier than to hunt for a zero model.
Coating only affects color tint, all of them are single coated - 44-2 Helios lenses are cold or neutral, while original Biotars are warm.
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(almost) complete list of Helios lenses |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 57849
Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
I prefer oldest one as possible with M39 screw.
_________________
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Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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