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Fixing film with table salt?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:21 pm    Post subject: Fixing film with table salt? Reply with quote
Anyone here tried it?
It was the first method to fix film as far as I know.

You add saturated (means at least 36g salt/100ml water) uniodized table salt solution into the tank with well washed developed film and wait 2-3 days.
As far as I know the negs are darker than usual but they are usable and stable in sunlight.

Can anyone here show results with this method?

Last edited by ForenSeil on Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:12 pm; edited 4 times in total


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
No. No reason to.

Photo companies spend millions of dollars in research to produce ever better products.

All of your questions seem to be about how to avoid doing anything according to the directions supplied by the manufacturers to ensure the best results. I am not sure how many others here share this interest. I am puzzled why you do this.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I totally get the logic behind trying different things. 1- to see if it can be done, 2- to learn skills that will serve us when film makers stop making chemicals, if that happens, and 3- 1lb. table salt = $0.85. 1lb fixer = $8.5. So there's the cost factor.

Oreste makes a good point, though. A century or more of chemical research performed by some of the finest minds in the U.S. and abroad resulted in simple-to-use and effective chemicals. There's no technical reason to try different things, only artistic.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
David wrote:
I totally get the logic behind trying different things. 1- to see if it can be done, 2- to learn skills that will serve us when film makers stop making chemicals, if that happens, and 3- 1lb. table salt = $0.85. 1lb fixer = $8.5. So there's the cost factor.

Oreste makes a good point, though. A century or more of chemical research performed by some of the finest minds in the U.S. and abroad resulted in simple-to-use and effective chemicals. There's no technical reason to try different things, only artistic.


but he keeps asking if we have tried this or that. that's my point. if he wants to try it, go right ahead, but i doubt many here have any interest in this.

especially adding rodinal to other developers. rodinal has a high ph. it over-accelerates the other developers. if you want to over-develop film, there are easier ways.

'trying different things' is what research chemists do. they have far better facilities and a whole lot more chemicals. LOL

im not a slave to convention but most of this stuff does not lead to anything interesting


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Forget salt, it's not an effective fixer. Fox-Talbot found that out 150-odd years ago, he was getting nowhere until John Herschel suggested he use hypo (sodium thiosulphate).

If you want to make cheaper fixer than what you can buy you need Sodium Thiosulphate, it's easy to buy as it's used in pool treatment to reduce chlorine levels.

It dissolves easily in water, a kilogram of lab reagent grade costs me about 8ukp and makes a lot of fixer, if you could find a local pool supplied place you could probably buy it in bulk a fair bit cheaper.

Works well for me with all films I have tried it with which must be a dozen types by now.



PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
So we can develop in coffee, use vinegar as stop bath and fix using salt.

I'll stick to using the correct chemicals for film processing, drinking coffee and sprinkling salt & vinegar on my fish and chips. Laughing


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The curiosity and the desire of doing the things by oneself have been driving the evolution of things.
I'm with ForenSeil: trying things helps in learning and mind opening.

Regards.
Jes.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm all for it!, test that creative mind! Please share the results if you manage to create something cool!

Know this tho, the path you are on will lead you down a dark path that ends in you being extremely opinionated, wearing a turtleneck and shooting a holga because it creates "art". Sure, you will know more than the rest about film, developing and shooting. But that will only make you even more opinionated and snotty. You have been warned.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jesito wrote:
The curiosity and the desire of doing the things by oneself have been driving the evolution of things.
I'm with ForenSeil: trying things helps in learning and mind opening.

Regards.
Jes.


i guess i just don't understand why hes asking these things here instead of a darkroom site.

one has to understand the underlying principles of photo chemistry to make good experiements. mixing rodinal with xtol for instance does not give you something intermediate between them. splitting development between the two developers will give results intermediate between them. so, thats why i would never combine them in one bath. all you get is overactive xxtol and overdeveloped film.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:


i guess i just don't understand why hes asking these things here instead of a darkroom site.



I thought this was a darkroom thread on a photography forum dedicated to old cameras?.. Why wouldn't he ask this here?
I just don't believe in ridiculing or putting someone down for asking questions, a question is a good thing, no-matter what it is.
And considering most here have probably developed film at one time or other, it's not even that far off to ask if anyone in the community have ever experimented.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nisseliten wrote:
Quote:


i guess i just don't understand why hes asking these things here instead of a darkroom site.



I thought this was a darkroom thread on a photography forum dedicated to old cameras?.. Why wouldn't he ask this here?
I just don't believe in ridiculing or putting someone down for asking questions, a question is a good thing, no-matter what it is.
And considering most here have probably developed film at one time or other, it's not even that far off to ask if anyone in the community have ever experimented.


OK, but the particular things hes asking are not likely to have been attempted by people here.

also, it seems all his questions are of this nature.

to experiment, you have to understand photo chemistry, alkalinity and acidity. as i said, combining developers such as xtol and rodinal does not give you interemediate results. developing part-way in one, then part-way in the other is much more likely to give such an intermediate result. you don't even have to perform the experiment to know what will happen if you know the composition of these developers. rodinal has sodium or potassium hydroxide in it, a powerful alkali. xtol (like d-76) uses a mild alkali. yu can deduce what will jhappen based on this.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oreste wrote:
Nisseliten wrote:
Quote:


i guess i just don't understand why hes asking these things here instead of a darkroom site.



I thought this was a darkroom thread on a photography forum dedicated to old cameras?.. Why wouldn't he ask this here?
I just don't believe in ridiculing or putting someone down for asking questions, a question is a good thing, no-matter what it is.
And considering most here have probably developed film at one time or other, it's not even that far off to ask if anyone in the community have ever experimented.


OK, but the particular things hes asking are not likely to have been attempted by people here.

also, it seems all his questions are of this nature.

to experiment, you have to understand photo chemistry, alkalinity and acidity. as i said, combining developers such as xtol and rodinal does not give you interemediate results. developing part-way in one, then part-way in the other is much more likely to give such an intermediate result. you don't even have to perform the experiment to know what will happen if you know the composition of these developers. rodinal has sodium or potassium hydroxide in it, a powerful alkali. xtol (like d-76) uses a mild alkali. yu can deduce what will jhappen based on this.


I'm afraid I don't agree with you. I believe the things he is asking about are very like to have been attempted by people here, this would be the place to ask them.

Also, if you already knew the outcome, there would be no reason to experiment, would there?.
Some of us are still so naive we throw what we have at the film and see what comes out, be it coffee, cocktails or even pee.
It's not that we are attempting to replace rodinol as a professional developer, or necessarily attempting to create a special look we are after. Some of us just wants to see what happens and I think that should be encouraged, not condemned.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nisseliten wrote:
Oreste wrote:
Nisseliten wrote:
Quote:


i guess i just don't understand why hes asking these things here instead of a darkroom site.



I thought this was a darkroom thread on a photography forum dedicated to old cameras?.. Why wouldn't he ask this here?
I just don't believe in ridiculing or putting someone down for asking questions, a question is a good thing, no-matter what it is.
And considering most here have probably developed film at one time or other, it's not even that far off to ask if anyone in the community have ever experimented.


OK, but the particular things hes asking are not likely to have been attempted by people here.

also, it seems all his questions are of this nature.

to experiment, you have to understand photo chemistry, alkalinity and acidity. as i said, combining developers such as xtol and rodinal does not give you interemediate results. developing part-way in one, then part-way in the other is much more likely to give such an intermediate result. you don't even have to perform the experiment to know what will happen if you know the composition of these developers. rodinal has sodium or potassium hydroxide in it, a powerful alkali. xtol (like d-76) uses a mild alkali. yu can deduce what will jhappen based on this.


I'm afraid I don't agree with you. I believe the things he is asking about are very like to have been attempted by people here, this would be the place to ask them.

Also, if you already knew the outcome, there would be no reason to experiment, would there?.
Some of us are still so naive we throw what we have at the film and see what comes out, be it coffee, cocktails or even pee.
It's not that we are attempting to replace rodinol as a professional developer, or necessarily attempting to create a special look we are after. Some of us just wants to see what happens and I think that should be encouraged, not condemned.


what im saying is that yu can deduce a lot of it if you know chemistry already. if you put boric acid in the mix that would slow it down some. and no, i doubt most people here have tried the things hes asking. i have tried a few things. i have a whole box full of chemicals and books with formulas thate xpolain what they do.

before doing an experiment it helps to have some idea of what is likely to happen. this can be deduced. placing your hand on a spot in a print as it is developing can help acclerate development due to the heat of your hands. adding concentrated print developer locally to a print in a tray of developer can do the same thing. it aint all zone system. often its hand manipulation that produces the perfect print. there are very few tricks in print making that i don't know about.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oreste wrote:

what im saying is that yu can deduce a lot of it if you know chemistry already. if you put boric acid in the mix that would slow it down some. and no, i doubt most people here have tried the things hes asking. i have tried a few things. i have a whole box full of chemicals and books with formulas thate xpolain what they do.

before doing an experiment it helps to have some idea of what is likely to happen. this can be deduced.


I have no doubt you are very talented and knowledgeable when it comes to developing and the chemistry behind it, and you do need basic knowledge of what your actually supposed to do to the film to get an image. Tho I believe that concentrated salt water is a viable option chemically wise, albeit very impractical and non-lasting.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here before it gets even more out of control. But the bottom line is, creativity is good. Especially for photographers.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nisseliten wrote:
Oreste wrote:

what im saying is that yu can deduce a lot of it if you know chemistry already. if you put boric acid in the mix that would slow it down some. and no, i doubt most people here have tried the things hes asking. i have tried a few things. i have a whole box full of chemicals and books with formulas thate xpolain what they do.

before doing an experiment it helps to have some idea of what is likely to happen. this can be deduced.


I have no doubt you are very talented and knowledgeable when it comes to developing and the chemistry behind it, and you do need basic knowledge of what your actually supposed to do to the film to get an image. Tho I believe that concentrated salt water is a viable option chemically wise, albeit very impractical and non-lasting.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here before it gets even more out of control. But the bottom line is, creativity is good. Especially for photographers.


Xtol itself is the result of research, which is controlled experimentation. So are all our current products. but the photo companies have chemists and researchers with access to all sorts of chemicals and equipment. developers are in fact mixtures of several ingredients already (reducing agent, accelerant, preservative, solvent, restrainer, etc.). if there was any benfit to mixing rodinal and xtol it would already be on the market.

i once used slide duplicating film to take ordinary pictures. they looked awful. dupe film is sensitized differently.

If you look at the formulas for many developers, you will see they are variations. print developers and film developers have the same basic ingredients, just in different proportions:

D-72:

http://www.ohio.edu/people/schneidw/kod_d72.html

D-76:

http://www.ohio.edu/people/schneidw/kod_d76.html

You can see the difference is mostly in teh accelerant, sodiumm carbonate (strong alkali) 45gms instead of 2 grams of borax (weak alkali) in D-76.

if you mixed D-72 with D-76, you would get a developer of intermediate strength. Basiclly diluted D-72.

rodinal is an old primitive developer using a strong alkali than has retained popularity for various reasons. mostly its stability and economy. D-76 came out in 1927, as amotion-picture film developer. similar developers using mild alkalis have dominated ever since.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
martinsmith99 wrote:
So we can develop in coffee, use vinegar as stop bath and fix using salt.

I'll stick to using the correct chemicals for film processing, drinking coffee and sprinkling salt & vinegar on my fish and chips. Laughing


Laughing Laughing Laughing +1


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
martinsmith99 wrote:
So we can develop in coffee, use vinegar as stop bath and fix using salt.

I'll stick to using the correct chemicals for film processing, drinking coffee and sprinkling salt & vinegar on my fish and chips. Laughing


Laughing Laughing Laughing +1


has anyone here ever caught fish using fishnet stockings? i wonder....


PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
it used to be so much more fun. Agfa film in Ansco chemicals...

Perutz

Gevaert

ORWO

Ferrania

DuPont

many others...

Agfaphoto branded photographic films are not made by Agfa-Gevaert at all, originally having been made by the now closed Ferrania plant in Italy. Agfaphoto films are now produced by Fujifilm in Japan for Lupus Imaging Media.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
martinsmith99 wrote:
So we can develop in coffee, use vinegar as stop bath and fix using salt.

I'll stick to using the correct chemicals for film processing, drinking coffee and sprinkling salt & vinegar on my fish and chips. Laughing


Laughing Laughing Laughing +1


to the original question . I have never tried to fix with salt.

But I have developed in coffee and used vinegar as a stop bath and fixed with powdered fixer I had stashed in my suitcase prior to coming home from some countries so that my BW film would not be subject to xrays in an undeveloped state. It certainly works for me.

I believe that questioning things once in a while is a good thing.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oreste wrote:
Attila wrote:
martinsmith99 wrote:
So we can develop in coffee, use vinegar as stop bath and fix using salt.

I'll stick to using the correct chemicals for film processing, drinking coffee and sprinkling salt & vinegar on my fish and chips. Laughing


Laughing Laughing Laughing +1


has anyone here ever caught fish using fishnet stockings? i wonder....


If I can count common pantyhose, Then yes ! I use it to contain a very potent but foul smelling rotten cut bait mixture on a treble hook when fishing for catfish during the spring thaw on our local rivers. Simple and effective !


PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would like to find a commonly available household chemical that can be used as a fixer, in case I ever need to know that.
After all, who thought of caffinol? Sure developing in tea and urine had been tried (and done successfully) decades ago in the PoW camps, but I simply can't recall what was used as fixer. Not that I'm ever likely to end up in one with a burning need to shoot film at great risk to my life, but it's one of those things that itch me and like an itch I occasionally feel the need to scratch it.
So yes, people here do like to try things and fiddle around; not all the answers are available off the shelf in neat little boxes.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Farside wrote:
I would like to find a commonly available household chemical that can be used as a fixer, in case I ever need to know that.
After all, who thought of caffinol? Sure developing in tea and urine had been tried (and done successfully) decades ago in the PoW camps, but I simply can't recall what was used as fixer. Not that I'm ever likely to end up in one with a burning need to shoot film at great risk to my life, but it's one of those things that itch me and like an itch I occasionally feel the need to scratch it.
So yes, people here do like to try things and fiddle around; not all the answers are available off the shelf in neat little boxes.


I have read with interest a few discussions about this on a couple of forums. One of them was a caffenol forum f you wish to look into it. If I recall correctly they tried super saturated salt solutions and they believed they had some luck . I just have not tried it because of the relative ease of using a cheap powdered fixer when cost or convenience is an issue(although I tend to use an alkaline fixer mostly these days). Developing with something non traditional doesn't bother me but risking the future of my negatives to degradation because of incomplete fixing just doesn't feel right to me. I would like to wait and see how these negs look in a few years before I would try it.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
erkie wrote:
Farside wrote:
I would like to find a commonly available household chemical that can be used as a fixer, in case I ever need to know that.
After all, who thought of caffinol? Sure developing in tea and urine had been tried (and done successfully) decades ago in the PoW camps, but I simply can't recall what was used as fixer. Not that I'm ever likely to end up in one with a burning need to shoot film at great risk to my life, but it's one of those things that itch me and like an itch I occasionally feel the need to scratch it.
So yes, people here do like to try things and fiddle around; not all the answers are available off the shelf in neat little boxes.


I have read with interest a few discussions about this on a couple of forums. One of them was a caffenol forum f you wish to look into it. If I recall correctly they tried super saturated salt solutions and they believed they had some luck . I just have not tried it because of the relative ease of using a cheap powdered fixer when cost or convenience is an issue(although I tend to use an alkaline fixer mostly these days). Developing with something non traditional doesn't bother me but risking the future of my negatives to degradation because of incomplete fixing just doesn't feel right to me. I would like to wait and see how these negs look in a few years before I would try it.


I have a plan to start a divorce photography business.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Forget salt, you need this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1kg-Sodium-thiosulphate-aquarium-dechlorinator-top-quality-/140726666399?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Supplies_ET&hash=item20c3f6849f


PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oreste wrote:
erkie wrote:
Farside wrote:
I would like to find a commonly available household chemical that can be used as a fixer, in case I ever need to know that.
After all, who thought of caffinol? Sure developing in tea and urine had been tried (and done successfully) decades ago in the PoW camps, but I simply can't recall what was used as fixer. Not that I'm ever likely to end up in one with a burning need to shoot film at great risk to my life, but it's one of those things that itch me and like an itch I occasionally feel the need to scratch it.
So yes, people here do like to try things and fiddle around; not all the answers are available off the shelf in neat little boxes.


I have read with interest a few discussions about this on a couple of forums. One of them was a caffenol forum f you wish to look into it. If I recall correctly they tried super saturated salt solutions and they believed they had some luck . I just have not tried it because of the relative ease of using a cheap powdered fixer when cost or convenience is an issue(although I tend to use an alkaline fixer mostly these days). Developing with something non traditional doesn't bother me but risking the future of my negatives to degradation because of incomplete fixing just doesn't feel right to me. I would like to wait and see how these negs look in a few years before I would try it.


I have a plan to start a divorce photography business.


Wink
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