Medium format newb

[hacksawbob]

OK so I have my 35mm film camera sorted (EOS 1n) and I would like to try my hand at Medium format but as ever I dont have a huge amount to spend Some of the recomendations I have so far are the Yashica Mat (thanks Lawrence)
the bronica system S or ETRS
Mamiya C330/C220
I want something thats not going to be too bulky so I was also looking at some of the interesting rangefinder medium formats but I they may be beyond my budget.
I like the thought of taking some large negatives on an infrequent basis, digitising the negatives with my 400D for test shots, then having any really good ones scanned professionally. I want the highest quality available to me.
Mainly landscapes but maybe some posed portaits too. In April I may be able to afford a bit more (maybe Ł200 max) so I am doing my research now. Any thoughts on the direction I should be looking in?

[F16SUNSHINE]

Hello Bob

I would second Laurence on the Yashica mat. There are many models to choose from. The earlier have the yashicor lens, later the yashinon lens (superior). You can find the last model produced the 124g for about $100 if you are patient. I would hold out for it as it does in fact have a useable meter built in. These cams are easy to load, focus , and compose. The are very lightweight and reasonably compact. I have also heard that the lens coating in the latest models is superior. Another reason to hold out for a later copy. Of course there are hundreds of other choices in folder cams for MF. I will let others with more experience with them spout their virtues. I have only one folder. It is a zeiss icon. The frame size is 4x5 which is not that interesting for the trouble of 120 film as compared to 35mm. Oh, I also have a agfa "clack". It is a funky little fixxed lens 6x9. You can find them for about ten bucks. Kind of like a 1950's version of the Holga.

Andy

[themoleman342]

I would at least look into the zeiss ikon ikoflex. Mine is from 1937 and still running strong. Whole thing is metal but fairly small. There are many different versions. The favorit is the last and most desirable but most came with tessars, so you know that's a good lens. Mine came with a triotar which is beautifully soft. The novars are not bad either - just not as good as the tessars. Here's an opinion on the ikoflex IIa: http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/ikoflex2a/

Try to stay away from the ikoflex III (I think) - supposidly it has brass gears (because steal was being used for the war effort) and is fairly unreliable. The ones with compur-rapid shutters are also better.

Hope this helps
~Marc

[hacksawbob]

thanks for the responses, I am wondering whether to dip my toe or dive in! certainly a I would jump at a cheap yashi more scouring on ebay. I also quite like the sound of the folding cams but I have even less experience of these and I am embarrassed to say that I have never used an external light meter.

[Laurence]

Much as I love my Yashica Mat, there are certainly those other choices that are possibly within your budget of no more than 200 British pounds. That said, you won't go "wrong" with a Yashica, for the reasons that Andy quoted above.

I almost feel "married" to the Yashica, but that's only because I have ended up concentrating on it for my medium format images. More so than even the Pentax 645.

I have also had folders (Agfa Isolette, Zeiss Ercona) and they are totally competent cameras and lenses.

The Yashica fits perfectly for my occasional large prints, and even a 1m x1m print is never out of the question!

You can "afford" to wait out a price on the Yashica Mat, if that is where you are leaning. They come up all the time, and bargains are plentiful.

As you know, I'm in process of scanning all my Yashica shots, and sharing a smaller version them on this forum. I would love to see your work with whatever piece of equipment you choose.

My folders were acquired through Jurgen Kreckel (certo6 on the Bay), because he guarantees the CLAs that he gives them, and will take it back and fix or substitute, if there is a problem. His opinion is that nearly EVERY folder bought on the web needs work, and I believe him because I feel he is honest.

I also agree about the "less than top" lenses such as the Novar and Apotar and others. In medium format it seems to no make much difference, because the "real estate" of the neg or trannie is so nice and large.

Also, especially for print film, the Sunny 16 "rules" are just fine. I've used them enough that I don't bother with a meter. It's not that I'm saying I'm "good" with it, it's only saying that with a fair amount of shooting from the hip and using the Sunny 16 rules, I don't think a meter is all that necessary; and of course bracketing on slide film is a good way to go.

[bob955i]

[rick_oleson]

For 200 pounds you can EASILY score a good postwar Rolleiflex Automat, something in the MX or MX/EVS range with a Zeiss Tessar lens. That would be my choice in that price range, it's both sharper and more durable than any of its Japanese followers. If you want to spend less, you could look for a Minolta Autocord (but watch out for stiff focusing and/or a broken focus lever), or a Yashica Mat (but watch out for a worn film/shutter wind linkage), probably the two top choices among readily available Japanese models. If you want to get really cheap and are willing to forego all creature comforts, you can get a Ciro-Flex with Rapax shutter for about $30 USD that will take very good pictures and keep running reliably (the thing to watch out for in this case is a stiff aperture selector and/or any asymmetry in the iris shape)

The Mamiyas are good cameras, but if you want to avoid bulk they are surely not the choice.

[F16SUNSHINE]

Wow Bob!
I did not read that you had such a nice budget. 200 GBP will go a long way. Larry and Bob both make good points about metering. With print film sunny 16 is something that you can teach yourself quickly and really enjoy. Having a light meter with you (as the one Bob suggested), even without a camera is good practice. Take a look at a scene and estimate the EV then, check it with your averaging meter. See if you are close or maybe right on. It is fun and really gets the head into the game. This is a great exercise for all fotogs. Rick mentioned the Minolta autocord. One of my favorite fotogs from the film era, Les McLean had some great shots with that cam. If you find a nice one, green light it. Also mentioned was the Rollei. I bought my Rollei Planar 3.5 for $195 then spent another $160 for a CLA . The camera fired properly but I wanted to make sure it would go for years. Know it has a great new life. Mostly we have refered to TLR's. Hopefully the folder guys (and gals) will speak up. I am interested in which models to look out for as well.

[vilva]

I like the Zeiss Ikon Ikonta A 6x4.5 folder camera a lot. It is small and light and has mostly about as much film real estate for landscapes as a 6x6, the one I have has a frame size of 58 mm x 43 mm, i.e. slightly wider than the normal 56 mm x 56 mm of a 6x6. I use the basic scale focusing model, which is OK for landscapes, but there are the Super Ikontas, which have a coupled range finder. They are usually much more expensive, but occasionally you may be lucky and get one cheaply, e.g. Click here to see on Ebay might be one of those.

I recently posted a few shots taken with my Ikonta A to "Gallery", and from the photos at http://galactinus.net/vilva/retro/ikonta_a.html you'll get an idea about the size of this camera compared to a Rolleiflex TLR, which weighs about 800 g more. As far as folder cameras are concerned, a 645 has much less film flatness problems than a 6x9 or even a 6x6, and you get more frames per roll at an often quite minimally lower IQ.

Here is a landscape photo taken in low contrast light so it wouldn't be very spectacular with any camera:



a 21 Mpixel version is available at http://galactinus.net/vilva/retro/ikonta_a_files/iko14.jpg , scanned with an Epson 4990 at 2400ppi. (4800 ppi might extract a wee bit more detail but not much due to the limitations of the 4990.)

Veijo

[rick_oleson]

The Super Ikonta A is one of my favorite MF camreas... The Tessar lens is very sharp and contrasty, even uncoated (I had one with a Novar lens, that was a disappointment). In order to get my SI A for under $100 I had to get a prewar model that looked like it had been through a war (as, actually, it had), but for 200 pounds you might get a postwar one with coated Tessar and flash synch.

Although the SI A will perform equally with the Rolleiflex, if I was going to have only one MF camera I would probably start with the TLR rather than the folder. Just my personal tastes perhaps.

[hacksawbob]

I haven't heard any votes for the mamiya C330 yet? or the bronica ETRS? I certainly like the option of changing lenses.

[F16SUNSHINE]

Many great photos have been made with the Bronica system. I have used it and personally my opinion is take a pass. It is not a good system for a casual photographer. On the plus side you can buy a complete system for cheap. My experience with the Mamiya is limited to seeing what others have done with it. Once again some really fantastic work has been done with that camera.

[rick_oleson]

[bob955i]

[peterqd]

[F16SUNSHINE]

Those yashica add on lenses work but not great. The loss of IQ is quite noticeable (distortion, contrast loss, corners softness). One camera not yet mentioned is the pentax 6x7. Many don't like it because it is an SLR with a big clunky vibrating mirror. I have the MLU model and it is very usable for landscapes. The prices of these MF SLR pentax cameras is dropping rapidly. The one we have was purchased december '06 for $200 with a 105 2.4 standard lens and meterprism. This last summer we bought a 55 3.5 for another $160. Pretty cheap for the quality of images produced. The downside it is heavy as hell, the lenses are huge (I think the 55 weighs like 3lbs), and of course that big mirror flapping away. If you mostly plan to do landscapes it is hard to beat for the cash laid out.

[bob955i]

The other great clunking MF SLR is the Pentacon Six or Praktisix - according to Rick the Praktisix is less problematic and fussy with regard to film loading and transport and there's loads of East German and Russian lenses in P6 mount.

CZJ Flektogon 4/50 (common), Flek 2.8/65 (less common), Biometar 2.8/80 (standard lens), Biometar 2.8/120, Sonnar 2.8/180 (everyone should have one....), Sonnar 4/300 (ditto)

There's just as many more Russian lenses - Arsat 3.5/30 fisheye (available new, although make sure you get a MC copy....) etc.,etc.

@ Peter: I have both the WA and tele auxiliary lenses for the Yashi but haven't got round to trying them. From what I've read, the WA is somewhat better than the tele, but still not great, like F16Sunshine says.

[hacksawbob]

I suppose I would trade off bulk for flexibility and cost. I would like to shoot slide film and I understand that although the mechanical cameras are good for longevity the springs etc tend to loosen altering the shutter speeds. So a CLA may be called for. A full ETRS system can be had for under Ł200 and it is an electronic shutter, so I suppose more to go wrong if it does, but if its working it should be holding correct exposures. Maybe owners of of older mechanical shutters can confirm or deny this. I guess its down to the individual camera and how old/how well its been treated.

I love the rolleiflex, the history and look of the camera. The reason I like the look of the mamiya is that they don't have adapters like the Yashica but real removable lenses viewing and taking that appear to come off as a unit. also there is a bellows built in for macro. Seems like the perfect system, I haven't had a chance to actually hold one so I cant imagine what they are really like to handle I guess the extra weight would be a bind but it would only come out on special occassions. As the prices of these have stabilised I can always get most of my money back if it doesn't agree with me.

[Farside]

http://www.photographyhistory.com/cc2.html

I've been seriously considering a return to Med Format myself, but want to do it reasonably cheaply as I don't see any virtue in chucking money away on something that will probably not get used a lot. To this end I've been looking at the prices of Russian and GDR gear and getting a feel for the ones to avoid. The above link is quite useful.

[hacksawbob]

I notice the older folders used a red window to see how far to move the film on, I think that film had a paper back to prevent this ruining the film, does 120 film still have a paper back? do I need to block this window off to shoot colour slide film with one of these cameras? Or are they only suitable for B+W films?

[rick_oleson]

Yes, the paper and numbers are still there. You don't have to cover the window, although if it has a sliding cover on it, it's best to keep it closed except when you're using it to advance the film. There's no particular reason why color film should be more of a concern than black & white.

Some of these red windows are more secure than others. The better ones have a light baffle on the inside, sometimes black felt, sometimes thin sheet metal, to keep light from bouncing around inside the camera after it comes through the window. It's hard to tell whether you'll have a problem without shooting some film, but usually I find they're OK.

[hacksawbob]

Thanks for the link farside and the quick reply Rick.

[Laurence]

A lot of factors initially pushed me to the Pentax 645, and I am glad I did; it's everything I thought it would be, and more.

Here is a good comparison between many of the medium format cameras. I have noticed that the Pentax 645 has a lot "bests" in comparison to others.

http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/go2.html#pentax645

[F16SUNSHINE]

Here are a few to watch

Mammy TLR Click here to see on Ebay


Mammy 645Click here to see on Ebay

Old Hassy Click here to see on Ebay

Hassy is with tessar not planar as usual kinda interesting

Yashicamat 12 this one will go cheap it does have a yashinon lens though
Click here to see on Ebay

[hacksawbob]

Only the Hassy ships worldwide