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45-55mm budget lens options?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:23 pm    Post subject: 45-55mm budget lens options? Reply with quote
Hi folks

I have a modest lens collection but feel I'm lacking a really good 'normal' length lens.

I'm using an EOS 10d with an APS-C size sensor.

I currently have these:

Pentacon Prakticar f/1.8 50mm Praktica bayonet
Meyer-Optik Görlitz Domiplan f/2.8 50mm M42
Helios 44-2 f/2 58mm s/n: 7431513
Pentax-M SMC f/2 50mm PK s/n: 5575287

I love the Helios 44-2, it's mint and I'll never part with it. The Pentacon 1.8 is also mint and I have an adapter so it will fit my EOS, it's sharp and quite fast but the infinity focus seems to be slightly off, probably due to the extra thickness of the adapter.

The Domiplan is okay for what it is, but I rarely use it as the Helios is a much better lens in most situations.

I just picked up the Pentax for nothing, it came mounted on a mint Pentax MG body that I've decided to keep just because it's such a beatiful camera and in such good condition, I'm loathe to remove the lens from it as I want it as a collector's piece.

However, I keep reading so much about Takumars and Pentax 50-55mm lenses I ask myself if it's worth getting an adapter to use it on my EOS?

Because I love the Helios so much and also have a Jupiter-11A I also love, I'm looking at other Russian lenses.

The Industar N61 53mm interests me, I can pick up a Fed of Zorki with an N61 on it cheap but these are M39 mount, can I use an M39 N61 on a EOS 10D with an adapter? Or do I need to find the L/Z M42 version?

I also see a lot of Industar-26 and Jupiter-8 50mm lenses in M39 for peanuts, again, can these M39 lenses be used on a EOS 10d with an adapter?

What other 50mm lenses do people recomend? I'm on a tight budget so niceities like a 1.8 Pancolar of a 1.4 Takumar will have to wait.

What do people think of the Ludwig Meritar 2.9 50? Is this similar in IQ to the Domiplan?

Finally, will I find the same infinity focus issues I have with the Pentacon 1.8 in Praktica bayonet with other lenses in bayonet mount using an adapter? I see a lot of Pentax and Chinon K mount lenses cheap. I know an M42 lens works to infinity on my EOS as the Helios-44 and Domiplan focus to infinity with an adapter. Am I limited to M42 leneses if I want to hit infinity?


PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-55mm budget lens options? Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Hi folks

I have a modest lens collection but feel I'm lacking a really good 'normal' length lens.

I'm using an EOS 10d with an APS-C size sensor.



A normal lens is sometimes described as one with a focal length close to the diagonal of the sensor. On APS-C this is ~27-28 mm (depending upon manufacturer). In practice a 35 mm lens is often considered to be normal for APS-C. Is this what you are looking for ? Or do you want a 50+ mm lens which is normal on "full-frame" (diagonal ~ 43 mm) but is really a modest telephoto on APS-C ?


PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Welcome iangreenhalgh1!

Yes imho it is worth getting a PK-EOS adapter for your Takumar. On the MG the lens is a normal lens, on the 10D a portrait lens.

For 'normal' on 10D a Takumar 28 or 35 is inexpensive, but f/3.5, the 2/35 Takumar costs more.

In 45-55 range the great 1.4/50 Takumars cost less than 2/35s.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 45-55mm budget lens options? Reply with quote
sichko wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Hi folks

I have a modest lens collection but feel I'm lacking a really good 'normal' length lens.

I'm using an EOS 10d with an APS-C size sensor.



A normal lens is sometimes described as one with a focal length close to the diagonal of the sensor. On APS-C this is ~27-28 mm (depending upon manufacturer). In practice a 35 mm lens is often considered to be normal for APS-C. Is this what you are looking for ? Or do you want a 50+ mm lens which is normal on "full-frame" (diagonal ~ 43 mm) but is really a modest telephoto on APS-C ?


That is a very good point!

I have a Pentacon 2.8 28mm that I really like, same style and vintage as the 1.8 50 but sadly, also in Praktica bayonet and won't hit infinity. Nice lens, but because of this issue can't be used in a lot of situations.

So I am looking for another 28mm in M42, not in a rush to get one though. If the Pentacon hit infinity, I'd be happy to use it as my regular lens, in all other regards I really like it.

I have two 35mm M42 lenses, one is a Hanimex 3.5 that looks a bit battered but only cost me 3ukp from ebay, not tried it yet, needs a clean first. The other is a 2.8 Aritar (never heard of them, google find nothing) that cost me 4ukp on ebay, it's all metal, built like a tank, reminds me of a Takumar or Zeiss, optics are perfect, looks like it's never been used. I need to try it out, only had it a week, I am waiting for a couple of M42-EOS adapters to arrive as I lost the one I had.

I just like the 50mm focal length on my 10d, 135mm is too long for a lot of shots on this sensor and I can't afford any of the nice primes in the 50-100 range like the Jupiter-9, Helios-40 or Trioplan 100mm so a 50-55mm prime is the best compromise for me on my highly limited budget.

Here are some shots I snapepd the other day with the Pentacon 2.8 28mm, the first two show the infinity issue. These shots were taken early morning on a very dull, overcast day so a very low contrast situation and the lens was wide open at 2.8 for all of them. I just took these to test out how well this lens handled the low contrast light and what the dof was like when wide open. I think it's sharp enough, the third pic of the clock shows that, seems to handle contrast well enough too, the fourth pic shows there is no linear distortion on this size sensor so while it's nothing special, it's a good all-round little lens and I paid a fiver for it in mint condition. Is there anything I can do about this infinity problem?









It works much better on close-up shots:



The bokeh is okay, nothing distracting, some swirliness in the corners, I like shooting wide-open and this lens seems to me, to perform well wide open. If I can't work around the infinity issue, I'd like a copy of this lens in M42 mount.





PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Welcome iangreenhalgh1!

Yes imho it is worth getting a PK-EOS adapter for your Takumar. On the MG the lens is a normal lens, on the 10D a portrait lens.

For 'normal' on 10D a Takumar 28 or 35 is inexpensive, but f/3.5, the 2/35 Takumar costs more.

In 45-55 range the great 1.4/50 Takumars cost less than 2/35s.


Thankyou for the warm welcome!

I will certainly get a Pentak K-EOS adapter as it will come in handy if I get any more Pentax lenses.

I will certainly look out for Takumars, the 2/35 is fast for a wide lens, but I think I could get by with a 3.5.

I am shocked at how large, bright and clear the viewfinder is on this old Pentax MG made in 1982. I wish the viewfinder on my EOS was half as good! The focusing is so easy on the pentax with the split screen, wish the EOS had that, to me, it's a big omission from cheaper DSLRS.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you like Russian lenses you should consider buying some of the well known lenses like:
Jupiter 37a
Tair 11a
Helios 44-4, 44-6
and so on.
You wont be disappointed .


PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Drack wrote:
If you like Russian lenses you should consider buying some of the well known lenses like:
Jupiter 37a
Tair 11a
Helios 44-4, 44-6
and so on.
You wont be disappointed .


How different is the Jupter 37a to the 11a? I already have an 11a and like it very much.

Also, I have a Helios 44-2, what is the difference in the 44-4 and 44-6? I take it the later oens have less blade but better coatings?

I'd really like a Mir-1 sometime and there are a few industars that look interesting. The Jupiter-3 too as it's so fast.

The big reason I haven't puchased an Industar 61 or 26 or a Jupiter 8 yet is all the ones I see cheap are in M39 and I'm not sure if these will work on my EOS. Will the M39 versions work okay with an adapter or will they hit the mirror? I can find M42 versions but they cost a fair bit more.

I'd love a Jupiter 12 wide angle but it has that huge protruding rear element.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What's your budget? Other people know more then I, if you give them a number you'll probably get very detailed advice.

The Takumar 50/1.4 usually goes for $110-125 CDN on ebay.ca, so it isn't horribly expensive (at least over here).

For around $100 CDN you can get a new Canon EF 50mm/1.8. It's an all plastic autofocus lens (heresy!) The good news - it's sharp and relatively fast and weighs almost nothing. I find the autofocus is nice for kids, pets etc. The MF ring on this lens is clearly an afterthought though.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nikkors 50mm lenses are probably the best price/performance ratio
Olympus also


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
fuzzywuzzy wrote:
What's your budget? Other people know more then I, if you give them a number you'll probably get very detailed advice.

The Takumar 50/1.4 usually goes for $110-125 CDN on ebay.ca, so it isn't horribly expensive (at least over here).

For around $100 CDN you can get a new Canon EF 50mm/1.8. It's an all plastic autofocus lens (heresy!) The good news - it's sharp and relatively fast and weighs almost nothing. I find the autofocus is nice for kids, pets etc. The MF ring on this lens is clearly an afterthought though.


My budget is max 30ukp. Ideally no more than 20ukp and as I see so many lenses sold for less than this I think I can find something good, the art is in knowing what is worth buying and what isn't. As I already picked up the Pentacon 1.8 and Helios 44-2 for under a fiver each and the Pentax-M 50 was free I'm really not inclined to shell out too much on a lens.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
fuzzywuzzy wrote:
What's your budget? Other people know more then I, if you give them a number you'll probably get very detailed advice.

The Takumar 50/1.4 usually goes for $110-125 CDN on ebay.ca, so it isn't horribly expensive (at least over here).

For around $100 CDN you can get a new Canon EF 50mm/1.8. It's an all plastic autofocus lens (heresy!) The good news - it's sharp and relatively fast and weighs almost nothing. I find the autofocus is nice for kids, pets etc. The MF ring on this lens is clearly an afterthought though.


My budget is max 30ukp. Ideally no more than 20ukp and as I see so many lenses sold for less than this I think I can find something good, the art is in knowing what is worth buying and what isn't. As I already picked up the Pentacon 1.8 and Helios 44-2 for under a fiver each and the Pentax-M 50 was free I'm really not inclined to shell out too much on a lens.

For a aps-c camera, you can use a PK-EOS adaptor. Some of these adaptors may not give you correct hit of infinity.

Nikon (H. or H.C.) 50mm f/2(nikon F mount), Olympus 1.8/50(Olympus OM mount), (SMC)Takumar 1.8 or 2/55(M42 mount) and Yashica ML 1.9 or 2/50(C/Y mount) are very good standard prime lens which usually goes low. You will need a adaptor for some of these lens.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
For a aps-c camera, you can use a PK-EOS adaptor. Some of these adaptors may not give you correct hit of infinity.

Nikon (H. or H.C.) 50mm f/2(nikon F mount), Olympus 1.8/50(Olympus OM mount), (SMC)Takumar 1.8 or 2/55(M42 mount) and Yashica ML 1.9 or 2/50(C/Y mount) are very good standard prime lens which usually goes low. You will need a adaptor for some of these lens.


Cheers Calvin.

It's the infinity issue that worries me with bayonet lenses. I'm assuming M42 lenses don't share this problem?

I'm gutted that I just missed a 1.4/55 Takumar on ebay for 99p, no-one bid on it which is unbelievable!


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
calvin83 wrote:
For a aps-c camera, you can use a PK-EOS adaptor. Some of these adaptors may not give you correct hit of infinity.

Nikon (H. or H.C.) 50mm f/2(nikon F mount), Olympus 1.8/50(Olympus OM mount), (SMC)Takumar 1.8 or 2/55(M42 mount) and Yashica ML 1.9 or 2/50(C/Y mount) are very good standard prime lens which usually goes low. You will need a adaptor for some of these lens.


Cheers Calvin.

It's the infinity issue that worries me with bayonet lenses. I'm assuming M42 lenses don't share this problem?

I'm gutted that I just missed a 1.4/55 Takumar on ebay for 99p, no-one bid on it which is unbelievable!

The adaptor for M42 lens is easy to made.

99p is too much for a 1.4/55 Tak(SMC). You should able get it at about 80p with a bit luck. Some of the M42 1.4/55 from Tomioka are good performers too.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
For Russian 50s, take a look at the Industar 50-2 pancake lens and Industar 61 L/Z (the L/D model is for rangefinders and won't work on the 10D.

Russian 135s, IMO the Tair 11A is much better than the Jupiter 37A which is also better than the Jupiter 11A.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
martinsmith99 wrote:
For Russian 50s, take a look at the Industar 50-2 pancake lens and Industar 61 L/Z (the L/D model is for rangefinders and won't work on the 10D.

Russian 135s, IMO the Tair 11A is much better than the Jupiter 37A which is also better than the Jupiter 11A.


Cheers Martin, I intend to build up a nice collection of Russian lenses eventually. I paid 8ukp for the 11a so I'm hoping I'll spot the other 135s cheap eventually.

Thanks for the tips on the L/D model N61. I see tons of N61s and Jupiters 8s for peanuts stuck on the front of feds and zorkis but I haven't bought out as I was unsure if M39 lenses would work on the 10D.

I've been looking for a good Industar-50 in M42, they are common to see, often on Zenit E bodies. Only reason I haven't bought one yet is the price and availability of CZJ 2.8 Tessars in M42. The Industar-50 is a Tessar and I never saw the point in one if a real Tessar is the same price and more commonly seen secondhand here.

Does anyone know if any of the common M39 'normal' lenese from Ukraine/Russia will work on a 10d with an adapter?

Jupiter-8
Industar-61 (need the M42 variant, correct?)
Industar-26


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:

Does anyone know if any of the common M39 'normal' lenese from Ukraine/Russia will work on a 10d with an adapter?

Jupiter-8
Industar-61 (need the M42 variant, correct?)
Industar-26


First model Zenit cameras( like Zenit C , 3 , 3m) used M39 lenses. There where several lenses for them: Helios 44 -2 , Industar 50 , jupiter 9 , tair 11 , jupiter 6 , Tair 3 , mir 1 and some others that I do not remember. All of these lenses mounted on 10d with an adapter will work properly.
Industar 61 had a M42 variant which was the Industar 61 L/Z a quite good macro lens.
For other - I don`t know.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Whereabouts are you in the UK ? If you're within driving distance from Wolverhampton try the Wolverhampton Camera Fair, the next one is on April 10th.

http://www.wolverhamptoncamerafair.co.uk/

Sometimes there is a surprising amount of good lenses on sale, there are usually two Polish guys there selling loads of Russian stuff, and I don't think they are charging rip off prices either.

I've had some real bargains at the fair, but get there early, it's worth paying the bit extra.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Drack wrote:

First model Zenit cameras( like Zenit C , 3 , 3m) used M39 lenses. There where several lenses for them: Helios 44 -2 , Industar 50 , jupiter 9 , tair 11 , jupiter 6 , Tair 3 , mir 1 and some others that I do not remember. All of these lenses mounted on 10d with an adapter will work properly.
Industar 61 had a M42 variant which was the Industar 61 L/Z a quite good macro lens.
For other - I don`t know.


Hi Drack, thanks for that info. I relaised last night after doing some research that the M39 Zenits like the 3M have the same element to film distance as the M42 Zenits despite having M39 threads so as you say, the lenses will work for me. So I'm keeping my eye open for cheap early Senits on Ebay now. I just threw away a Zenit E 1980 Moscow Olympics edition that was heavily corroded, I just grabbed it for the excellent condition Helios 44-2 on it. I've seen Zenit 3Ms with the Industar-50 but not with other lenses (yet) but I'll keep looking. Zenit Es with Helios 44s are so common here in secondhand and charity shops.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lloydy wrote:
Whereabouts are you in the UK ? If you're within driving distance from Wolverhampton try the Wolverhampton Camera Fair, the next one is on April 10th.

http://www.wolverhamptoncamerafair.co.uk/

Sometimes there is a surprising amount of good lenses on sale, there are usually two Polish guys there selling loads of Russian stuff, and I don't think they are charging rip off prices either.

I've had some real bargains at the fair, but get there early, it's worth paying the bit extra.


Hiya Lloydy. Thanks for that tip. Sadly I'm way out on the Cumbria Coast so Wolverhampton is a 3-4 hours drive for me. I will probably make the trip sometime though, don't know of anything nearer.

Just got an almost mint Yashinon DX 75-230 M42 in the post today, cost me 6.99 and it is by far the biggest zoom lens I've ever handled. All metal and very nice build quality. I don't normally do zoom lenses but this one is supposed to be rather good. As someone said in another thread, you could club a rottweiler to death with it though!

Soon as my damn M42 adapters get here from Hong Kong I'll be out and about testing my M42 lenses and will post some reports. Then I'll have a better idea what I need to add to my collection first.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

... the M39 Zenits like the 3M have the same element to film distance as the M42 Zenits ...


In general this is not true. The early M39 cameras used a working distance of 45.2 mm and the later M42 Zenits used a register of 45.5 mm.
See for example ...

http://www.zenitcamera.com/mans/zenit-3m/zenit-3m.html

and

http://www.zenitcamera.com/mans/zenit-v/zenit-v.html

During the changeover some cameras were made in both M39 and M42 mounts and it is possible to find M39 lenses with a 45.5 mm register and M42 lenses with a 45.2 mm register.


PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I just threw away a Zenit E 1980 Moscow Olympics edition that was heavily corroded


I`ll give you an advice from personal experience. Don`t throw away broken cameras. Disassemble them, look inside how the mechanics work or just keep them. They don`t require food or anything. If you start buying russain lenses you might get cameras with them and some might need a part which that zenit that you`ve just through out had. Smile
Or you could give that broken camera to a repair man who might give you a discount when you come by next time.

Getting back to the topic.For now buying a industar 61L/Z , industar 50-2 or Helios 44m-4 would be perfect for you. But I suggest you start saving up your money and buy a much better russian lens such as tair 11a , Jupiter 9 , Jupiter 21m and then you`ll fell the true power of russia Very Happy


PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
sichko wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

... the M39 Zenits like the 3M have the same element to film distance as the M42 Zenits ...


In general this is not true. The early M39 cameras used a working distance of 45.2 mm and the later M42 Zenits used a register of 45.5 mm.
See for example ...

http://www.zenitcamera.com/mans/zenit-3m/zenit-3m.html

and

http://www.zenitcamera.com/mans/zenit-v/zenit-v.html

During the changeover some cameras were made in both M39 and M42 mounts and it is possible to find M39 lenses with a 45.5 mm register and M42 lenses with a 45.2 mm register.


Is 0.3mm difference enough to make a noticeable difference?


PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Drack wrote:
Quote:
I just threw away a Zenit E 1980 Moscow Olympics edition that was heavily corroded


I`ll give you an advice from personal experience. Don`t throw away broken cameras. Disassemble them, look inside how the mechanics work or just keep them. They don`t require food or anything. If you start buying russain lenses you might get cameras with them and some might need a part which that zenit that you`ve just through out had. Smile
Or you could give that broken camera to a repair man who might give you a discount when you come by next time.

Getting back to the topic.For now buying a industar 61L/Z , industar 50-2 or Helios 44m-4 would be perfect for you. But I suggest you start saving up your money and buy a much better russian lens such as tair 11a , Jupiter 9 , Jupiter 21m and then you`ll fell the true power of russia Very Happy


Cheers drack. Very clean 61L/Z are 30-ish euros direct from the Ukraine so I think I'll save my pennies, I was hoping I could snag a L/D version off an old fed or zorki for a few pounds but alas, no go.

How does the Helios 44m-4 differ from the 44-2 which I already have?

Just picked up another 44-2, a 75 model so idetical to the 74 one I already have. Going to remove the rear element and see how it works as a mild telephoto without it. This will keep me interested until I can afford a true telephoto Russian like a Jupiter 9. I have the Jupiter 11a which I like so a nice collection of Jupiters would be lovely.

Good advice about not throwing cameras away. Only tonight I thought 'damn, why didn't I take the M42 mount off that Zenit, only four screws to remove!' Oh well, you live and learn. Tommorow I'm going to attempt to make a diy lens key out of an old putty knife to see if I can unscrew the retaining ring holding a Schneider Xenar 45mm to a battered and broken Kodak Retinette. The aperture blades are jammed shut but I plan to remove them to use the lens wide open for some experimental shots, I'll just mount it to the EoS body by sticking it inside an M42 entension tube.


PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just wondering what peoples opinions were on these two and which would be preferable for my use on an EOS 10d, I like the idea of a pancake lens for casual shots as a walking around lens but the Tessar isn't all that much bigger. Of course, the Industar is also a Tessar design, I doubt the stop difference in speed makes much difference.

Industar 50 3.5 50mm M42

Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar 2.8 50mm M42

Both are about the same price secondhand and lots of them for sale. Ideally I'd just grad one of both to play with but finances won;t allow such flippant purchasing right now, sadly.


PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Probably your best bang for the buck is the M42 SMC Takumar 55 f1.8 or f2 (same lens with a aperture limiter). Nice sharp lens with good bokeh.
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