4 Wides, 3 Brands, 1 Maker (Long post, many pictures)

casualcollector

The origin of lenses seems to be of interest to several members here. Brand does not usually equate with manufacturer, especially with Japanese made lenses. Here's a little speculation on four lenses, bearing three brands, all from the same maker (in my opinion).

On the left is a Promatic 35/2.8 given to me several years ago. P.R.O. is a Connecticut, USA based buying consortium and distributor. The lens is fitted for Canon FL series cameras (FX, FT, Pellix and others). I had no idea who manufactured it. Same for the Soligor 28/2.8 on the right. Soligor was the trademark of Allied Impex Corp, a US based importer and distributor.

Look closely at the Soligor, again on the right. I bought it off e-bay because it didn't seem to match the usual Tokina made Soligors. The Soligor is also in Canon FL mount and bears some Canon like features, notably the shiny black finish common to most Canon FL lenses of the time.

I had both of them out together one day and started noticing some similarities. Despite differeing focal lengths and finishes, the breech lock rings seemed nearly identical. Both had A-M switches for the iris in the same location.

Looking at the rear face of the lens showed further similarities. Notice the spanner holes around the rear element. I felt they came from the same maker but with different finish and knurlings specified by the importer. Another bit of e-bay shopping turned up a clue.

The Vivitar 35/2.8 on the right bore a strong resemblance to the Promatic. While the feet and meter scales are transposed, the rest of the markings match up closely. Both lenses also close to f22 and again A-M switches are in the same location. The apparent difference in length is accounted for by the Vivitar being an M42 mount lens.

The clincher for me is the spanner holes for the rear group. I think the Promatic and the Vivitar came from the same maker and so did the Soligor 28. The Vivitar serial beginning with 22 is the clue that the maker should be Kino Precision. I say "should be" as the serial doesn't seem to follow, exactly, the information generally found on the web about Vivitar serials.

I don't think I've seen many Vivitar 35/2.8 lenses. Those that I have seen bore serials beginning with 37 and looked like Tokinas. Until this one, I haven't seen a Kino 35/2.8. One other headscratcher is the the fact that the Kino/Soligor 28 is a 2.8, unlike the common Kino/Vivitar 28/2.5.

Here's another Vivitar 35/2.8, picked up at a local thrift store a few weeks ago. Dressed in solid black, I'd guess it's a newer version of the lens on the right. Serials on both start 229xxx. Perhaps these lenses pre-date the documented Vivitar numbering system. The third digit in the serial shouldn't be a 9 on both lenses if you assume the black lens is newer. Here is a page on the Vivitar numbering system. http://www.cameraquest.com/VivLensManuf.htm

The Promatic lens seems to be a good picture maker. Here’s an image I took with it several years ago. http://www.vermontel.net/~wsalati/CasualCollector/cammer.htm

I’m not saying the information I’ve presented is absolutely correct. It’s a conclusion based on observed similarities of the lenses and identifying the maker via the serial number on the Vivitar units. I’d like to know what you think.

Bill

luisalegria · Expire: 2018-01-18

I think you've got some odd ones there Bill.

That is a very weird Soligor. It is pretty distinctive because its so long for a 28. It may be one of the first Soligor-brand automatic lenses. I may have seen it in Miranda mount. I suppose that Kiron (if thats the maker) had to start somewhere ?

I have seen others in that Vivitar line with the chrome band, a 135 and a 200, but they had different serial numbers, not on the system either. I saw a Soligor 250 that may also be related.

Nesster · Expire: 2014-02-20

A very interesting presentation, Bill - I love a good mystery!

One thing that occurs to me - what if any subcontracting practices were in place in Japan at the time? I.e. did each manufacturer build all the bits, vertically integrated? Or were there common sub-assembly supplies available - so that two manufacturers could source the same part from a common supplier?

Xpres · Expire: 2014-10-28

Most intriguing Bill.
I think there might be something in that subcontracting idea. Maybe the Japanese way of lens manufacture is similar to that of cars - designs often made to take advantage of the available bits from whomever?

casualcollector · Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject:

Hmmm. I posted a reply this morning. Must have hit the wrong button!

Luis, I've seen another of these Kino Soligors on e-bay recently. It had a Nikon mount. The Miranda connection makes things interesting. I read, somewhere on the web, that domestic market Mirandas had a different lens set than US market Mirandas. That might also be interpreted as meaning that the Miranda-Soligor lenses differed from the regular Soligor line. I think Vivitar specified the alternating black/silver design early on. Another recently spotted Viv 135/2.8 bore that styling but the overall proportions looked more Tokina-ish than the black and silver lens I posted a few weeks ago, here. http://forum.mflenses.com/yesterday-at-the-thrift-store-t14859.html. I'm guessing that lens as Kino or Komine.

Nesster. I recall a CBS 60 Minutes segment from long ago that showed many Japanese industries as being just about the opposite of vertically integrated. Kino Precision may have assembled the lens but the components probably came from many small shops that specialized in one operation. American industry is not as vertically integrated as you might think. I just lost my job with Piper Aircaft after three years and learned a few things about manufacturing there. Rolls of aluminum showed up on a truck and from there it was cut and formed into ribs and skins for the airframe and wings, but a lot of stuff came from outside. Forgings for landing gear were bought from outside but machined in house. I've also put in some time in a gear shop. One of our jobs was putting sprocket teeth on the primary drive/clutch housing for an aftermarket Harley transmission. We cut the teeth on the O.D. but the splines on the I.D. were already formed. We were a subcontractor to a subcontractor on that job.

Xpres, I know I'm running long here, but yeah, why re-invent the wheel if someone already has. Back in the 60s and the days of the GTO and 442, the Muncie 4 speed and Turbo Hydro automatic were on the option list. The standard transmission was a 3 speed manual. The Pontiac and Olds engineers and accountants looked at the engine's pwer, looked at the Saginaw 3 speed and saw nothing but warranty claims! They snuck over to Dearborn and bought 3 speeds from Ford. Admittedly rare, most people and dealers forked over the $$ for 4 speeds and automatics, but I've seen a car so equipped and recently had to scare up the documentation to satisfy a couple of my GM fanatic buddies up in Vermont.

Wormhandler · Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 106 Location: Sweden

Great presentation!

I also find these Japanese lenses fascinating and read through all the nice presentations made here on the forum.

Regarding the original makers. Maybe we can all contribute in a long thread making a picturedatabase of all the odd lenses, of japanese origins.
Have anyone read the "admirable blur samples" on the Fred Miranda Alternative Gear forum? Editing the first post to reflect changes would be a great way to get some order in such a thread.

For those wanting to learn more it would be of great help.
I know that I would like to get some ID's on some of mine. (Seastal? Alpex?) Though I am not the right person to start such a thread.

/Jan

luisalegria · Expire: 2018-01-18

Hi Bill,

I can attest to that non-vertical structure of US industries.

I was mixed up in the electronics/aerospace business here in California in a previous life (20 years ago), and back then EVERYTHING was subcontracted. LA and San Jose areas were full of small and large subcontract machine shops. You even had manufacturers subcontracting parts inspections.

casualcollector · Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:15 am Post subject:

casualcollector · Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:39 am Post subject:

Farside · Expire: 2013-12-27

cledry · Joined: 22 Dec 2008 Posts: 142 Location: Orlando, FL USA

luisalegria · Expire: 2018-01-18

Hi Bill,

Hot, maybe, because I ain't cool ! Or so says my daughter !

Anyway, I think this was a pretty common Miranda lens.

I think this is illustrated in Butkus' Miranda F manual -

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/miranda/miranda_f/miranda_f.htm

The Miranda F's came out in 1963 according to this -

http://www.mirandacamera.com/_modelinfo/modelinfo.htm#LaterLeverWind

So that may be a good date for this lens. I figure your Vivitars are somewhat later, possibly late 1960's but probably predating the serial number code.

casualcollector · Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject:

I've been looking for Miranda sites, only finding the usual ones that haven't been updated for several years (kinda like The Casual Collector!). I know one of them pinned at least some of the Miranda lenses of the Automex/Sensorex era on Kowa. That would be back in the 60s, I think. There were some high spec lenses. 85/1.8, maybe a 100/2. I'll go looking alittle harder for that site. It may hold some more clues.

ChrisLilley · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 1767 Location: Nice, France

Nothing to do with who made it, but I do like the knurled metal focus ring on that Soligor; its like the one on my pre-AI Nikkors. Very comfortable in use (assuming the weather is above freezing, which it pretty much always is, here).