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woodrim
Joined: 14 Jan 2010 Posts: 4060 Location: Charleston
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:43 pm Post subject: Two lenses in action, but which is better? |
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woodrim wrote:
There is another thread running concurrently where many people have shared contrasting opinions on how best to test lenses for comparison. I have tried to determine which of my lenses is sharpest, which provides the best bokeh, color, etc, but here is what ultimately helps me determine what I like best. But in this comparison, I have used two lenses that I like equally, but maybe for different reasons. However, what I think this will show is not so much the differences, but just how difficult it is to discern a difference between two very good, yet different lenses. The lenses share an approximate same focal length, a slightly different maximum aperture, and different optical schemes for sure.
I won't yet identify the lenses, but instead challenge you to see if you can at least determine which pictures are from the same lens. There are eleven from each lens. I will be very interested in hearing what viewers can tell. There are 11 from each lens. Camera is NEX-5N.
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_________________ Regards,
Woodrim |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
In this perfect light lens is not matter I think _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Differences between two good quality lenses are usually minimal - this is quite known, albeit sometimes denied by the most hardened "lens brand warriors"
Identification is difficult even when the two lenses take the same scene to be compared side by side. With different scenes, identification is simply impossible.
On crop camera, it is even "more impossible", because most of the visually evident differences usually happen at the edges of the frame, which are not captured.
So, I will not even try _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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Oreste
Joined: 08 Sep 2012 Posts: 451
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Oreste wrote:
Orio wrote: |
Differences between two good quality lenses are usually minimal - this is quite known, albeit sometimes denied by the most hardened "lens brand warriors"
Identification is difficult even when the two lenses take the same scene to be compared side by side. With different scenes, identification is simply impossible.
On crop camera, it is even "more impossible", because most of the visually evident differences usually happen at the edges of the frame, which are not captured.
So, I will not even try |
Exactly. Unless the apertures and setups are identical, this impossible. |
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fuzzywuzzy
Joined: 18 Dec 2010 Posts: 1258 Location: Down East, Canada, eh?
Expire: 2013-11-30
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:05 am Post subject: |
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fuzzywuzzy wrote:
Looks like a great day at the beach!
I might try to at least guess focal lengths later but for now I'll just enjoy the pics _________________ I welcome C&C, editing my pics and reposting them on the forum is fine.
NEX-F3
~~~~~~~~~
CZJ Sonnar 135/4, Biotar 58/2, Pancolar 50/2, Tessar 50/2.8, Flek 35/2.8, Flek 25/4
Super Takumar 135/2.5, 135/3.5, 100/4 bellows, 50/1.4, 28/3.5
Helios 58/2, 3M-5A 500/8, Mir 20M
Vivitar Series 1 70-210 - - - - - - - - Nikkor 200/4
Rikenon 28/2.8 - - - - - - - - Zeiss 50/1.7 Planar
PB 50/2.4, 135/2.8
Yashica 50/1.9, 28/2.8, 135/2.8
Hexanon 28/3.5, 50/1.4 |
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hifisapi
Joined: 25 Sep 2012 Posts: 941 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:10 am Post subject: |
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hifisapi wrote:
it might be possible to match up some shots that have enough and different bokeh but the small aperture landscape distance shots are going to be hard to distinquish. _________________ ===========
ACQUIRED OVER 30 YEARS:
Cameras: DSLR=Pentax istDS FILM=Pentax SP, SP-F, ESII, SP1000, KX, K2
Lenses : Pentax M42 = Super Multi Coated Takumars 50/1.4 55/1.8 100/4-BELLOWS 500/4.5 1000/8 135-600/6.7 Pentax PK= SMC Pentax-Ks K17/4-FF Fisheye K18/3.5 K20/4 K24/3.5 K28/3.5 K28/2 K35/3.5 K35/2 K50/1.2 K50/1.4K 50/4-MACROK 55/1.8 K85/1.8 K100/4-MACRO K100/4-BELLOWS K105/2.8 K120/2.8 K135/3.5 K135/2.5 K150/4 K200/4 K400/5.6 K45-125/4K 85-210/4.5 Pentax PKM = SMC Pentax-M M40/2.8-Pancake M50/1.4 M75-150/4 M80-200/4.5 Pentax PKA= SMC Pentax-A A15/3.5 A50/2.8-MACRO A28/2 A35/2 A50/1.4 A135/2.8 A200/4 A*300/4 A35-105/3.5 A24-50/4 A70-210/4 TAMRON AD2= SP80-200/2.8 SP180/2.5 TOKINA AT-X PK= ATX28-85/3.5-4.5 ATX35-70/2.8 ATX60-120/2.8 ATX80-200/2.8 ATX100-300/4 ATX90/2.5 MACRO KIRON-LESTER DINE PK = 105/2.8-MACRO VIVITAR PK = 135/2.8-MACRO 28-85/4 NOFLEXAR AUTOBELLOWS PK = 60/4 105/4 |
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fermy
Joined: 17 Feb 2012 Posts: 1974
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:00 am Post subject: |
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fermy wrote:
Man, you love those quizzes, don't you? 11 images per lens is too hard, too much information. IMHO it would be better to present 3 images per lens. _________________ Many lenses and some film bodies for sale here: http://forum.mflenses.com/canon-fd-minolta-md-c-mounts-m42-pentax-and-more-t50465.html
Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/96060788@N06/ |
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Minolfan
Joined: 30 Dec 2008 Posts: 3438 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Minolfan wrote:
Must have been a great day at the beach.
I like #13 most; wanted to be there!
Funny excuse to expose such a lot of pictures |
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SonicScot
Joined: 01 Dec 2011 Posts: 2697 Location: Scottish Highlands
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:28 am Post subject: |
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SonicScot wrote:
fermy wrote: |
11 images per lens is too hard, too much information. IMHO it would be better to present 3 images per lens. |
I have to agree with fermy here, I'm lost in an avalanche of information. |
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pich900
Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 1745 Location: The Netherlands/Zwolle
Expire: 2012-12-27
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:50 am Post subject: |
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pich900 wrote:
Indeed quite a difficult challenge to determine which pictures are from the same lens but anyway, that's for sure two great lenses and it was a perfect day to test both lenses on the beach, great series from a great place ... _________________ All my lenses are for sale, nikkor, Angenieux, Zeiss etc.....
Regards,
Pascal
-------------------------------------------------------
Nikon D700 |
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hoanpham
Joined: 31 Jan 2011 Posts: 2575
Expire: 2015-01-18
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
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hoanpham wrote:
5, 8 and 16 due to the buttery bokeh.
Others are too difficult. _________________ La migliore cura di LBA � imparare una nuova lingua. Le meilleur rem�de de LBA est d'apprendre une nouvelle langue. La mejor cura del LBA es aprender una nueva lengua. |
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peterqd
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 7448 Location: near High Wycombe, UK
Expire: 2014-01-04
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:15 am Post subject: |
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peterqd wrote:
Same for me. I tried to differentiate by the light and the length of the shadows (assuming you only changed lenses once) but that's not the point of the exercise. _________________ Peter - Moderator |
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mo
Joined: 27 Aug 2009 Posts: 8979 Location: Australia
Expire: 2016-07-30
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: |
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mo wrote:
I forgot the question...but I loved the beach,the shells, what looked like good fishing...the drift wood....it just looked like you had a very nice time at the beach with two lenses.....#11 was my favorite and I enjoyed seeing the texture on the shells. _________________ Moira, Moderator
Fuji XE-1,Pentax K-01,Panasonic G1,Panasonic G5,Pentax MX
Ricoh Singlex TLS,KR-5,KR-5Super,XR-10
Lenses
Auto Rikenon's 55/1.4, 1.8, 2.8... 50/1.7 Takumar 2/58 Preset Takumar 2.8/105 Auto Takumar 2.2/55, 3.5/35 Super Takumar 1.8/55...Macro Takumar F4/50... CZJ Biotar ALU M42 2/58 CZJ Tessar ALU M42 2.8/50
CZJ DDR Flektogon Zebra M42 2.8/35 CZJ Pancolar M42 2/50 CZJ Pancolar Exakta 2/50
Auto Mamiya/Sekor 1.8/55 ...Auto Mamiya/Sekor 2/50 Auto Mamiya/Sekor 2.8/50 Auto Mamiya/Sekor 200/3.5 Tamron SP500/8 Tamron SP350/5.6 Tamron SP90/2.5
Primoplan 1.9/58 Primagon 4.5/35 Telemegor 5.5/150 Angenieux 3.5/28 Angenieux 3,5/135 Y 2
Canon FL 58/1.2,Canon FL85/1.8,Canon FL 100/3.5,Canon SSC 2.8/100 ,Konica AR 100/2.8, Nikkor P 105/2.5
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kds315*
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 16644 Location: Weinheim, Germany
Expire: 2021-03-09
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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kds315* wrote:
Excellent shots and great work at a wonderful location. I'm not going to the guessing game,
leave that to others... _________________ Klaus - Admin
"S'il vient a point, me souviendra" [Thomas Bohier (1460-1523)]
http://www.macrolenses.de for macro and special lens info
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/uv_photos for UV Images and lens/filter info
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kds315/albums my albums using various lenses
http://photographyoftheinvisibleworld.blogspot.com/ my UV BLOG
http://www.travelmeetsfood.com/blog Food + Travel BLOG
https://galeriafotografia.com Architecture + Drone photography
Currently most FAV lens(es):
X80QF f3.2/80mm
Hypergon f11/26mm
ELCAN UV f5.6/52mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f4/60mm
Zeiss UV-Planar f2/62mm
Lomo Уфар-12 f2.5/41mm
Lomo Зуфар-2 f4.0/350mm
Lomo ZIKAR-1A f1.2/100mm
Nikon UV Nikkor f4.5/105mm
Zeiss UV-Sonnar f4.3/105mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f1.8/45mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f4.1/94mm
CERCO UV-VIS-NIR f2.8/100mm
Steinheil Quarzobjektiv f1.8/50mm
Pentax Quartz Takumar f3.5/85mm
Carl Zeiss Jena UV-Objektiv f4/60mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha II f1.1/90mm
NYE OPTICAL Lyman-Alpha I f2.8/200mm
COASTAL OPTICS f4/60mm UV-VIS-IR Apo
COASTAL OPTICS f4.5/105mm UV-Micro-Apo
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f4.5/85mm
Pentax Ultra-Achromatic Takumar f5.6/300mm
Rodenstock UV-Rodagon f5.6/60mm + 105mm + 150mm
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woodrim
Joined: 14 Jan 2010 Posts: 4060 Location: Charleston
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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woodrim wrote:
Okay, okay, of course you're all right, too difficult to tell any appreciable difference. Had I thought I might do this post, I might have tried to keep the exposures more similar, but I was really just out to have a good time. But what you all see here is exactly my point (I think). These two lenses will get different reactions from this group of people, but they remain my favorite two in the focal length. I have my own perceptions of which is sharpest, which has the best bokeh, best colors, contrast, etc., but any time I've tried to prove it, I've been defeated by the results. Still, I'm confident one is the sharpest, but the other seems to give me more joy from the results. Well, most times, but this time in the same setting, they performed equally in my mind. So how important is the detail analysis we give to lenses, using test charts, etc?
I think the difference were more discernable when I was using my Sony A200, but now that I'm using a NEX-5N, the sensor seems to bring out the very best in both lenses with few if any flaws.
While the light made shooting wide open impossible, there is one that I know was wide open, that being number 5, but from which lens? The lenses were Tair-11 133/2.8 and Vivitar Series 1 135/2.3. _________________ Regards,
Woodrim |
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woodrim
Joined: 14 Jan 2010 Posts: 4060 Location: Charleston
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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woodrim wrote:
I should have also mentioned that neither lens has much or any coatings. The Tair is older and the Vivitar is an early version before the VMC. But look how well the Tair handled the direct sun reflections. _________________ Regards,
Woodrim |
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woodrim
Joined: 14 Jan 2010 Posts: 4060 Location: Charleston
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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woodrim wrote:
hoanpham wrote: |
5, 8 and 16 due to the buttery bokeh.
Others are too difficult. |
Thanks for taking a stab at this. One was from the Tair and the other two the Series 1. I think the one Tair is so characteristic of the lens it should be obvious ????? _________________ Regards,
Woodrim |
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fermy
Joined: 17 Feb 2012 Posts: 1974
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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fermy wrote:
Ok, I'll take a stab. My guess is that #5 is Vivitar. _________________ Many lenses and some film bodies for sale here: http://forum.mflenses.com/canon-fd-minolta-md-c-mounts-m42-pentax-and-more-t50465.html
Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/96060788@N06/ |
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SonicScot
Joined: 01 Dec 2011 Posts: 2697 Location: Scottish Highlands
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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SonicScot wrote:
Either way you look at it, the photos are a great advert for both lenses. |
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woodrim
Joined: 14 Jan 2010 Posts: 4060 Location: Charleston
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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woodrim wrote:
fermy wrote: |
Ok, I'll take a stab. My guess is that #5 is Vivitar. |
Yes indeed. I took it at f/2.3 not expecting much since it would not have been usable from the A200, but it performs much better with the NEX sensor. The picture was overexposed at 1/4000, my max speed, and while not razor sharp, it is acceptably sharp at point of focus and would have been better with a proper exposure. I should also mention that I will be in deep if my wife discovers I posted that picture - no make-up and squinting with sun in eyes. As an aside, I find this very interesting how much better my lenses perform with the NEX, whereas before we would have judged the lens unusable at this aperture. The sensor can't make a lens sharper, just record what it delivers. _________________ Regards,
Woodrim |
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hifisapi
Joined: 25 Sep 2012 Posts: 941 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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hifisapi wrote:
woodrim wrote: |
I should have also mentioned that neither lens has much or any coatings. The Tair is older and the Vivitar is an early version before the VMC. But look how well the Tair handled the direct sun reflections. |
Most lenses since WWII have at least single coatings. Uncoated lenses are VERY old. _________________ ===========
ACQUIRED OVER 30 YEARS:
Cameras: DSLR=Pentax istDS FILM=Pentax SP, SP-F, ESII, SP1000, KX, K2
Lenses : Pentax M42 = Super Multi Coated Takumars 50/1.4 55/1.8 100/4-BELLOWS 500/4.5 1000/8 135-600/6.7 Pentax PK= SMC Pentax-Ks K17/4-FF Fisheye K18/3.5 K20/4 K24/3.5 K28/3.5 K28/2 K35/3.5 K35/2 K50/1.2 K50/1.4K 50/4-MACROK 55/1.8 K85/1.8 K100/4-MACRO K100/4-BELLOWS K105/2.8 K120/2.8 K135/3.5 K135/2.5 K150/4 K200/4 K400/5.6 K45-125/4K 85-210/4.5 Pentax PKM = SMC Pentax-M M40/2.8-Pancake M50/1.4 M75-150/4 M80-200/4.5 Pentax PKA= SMC Pentax-A A15/3.5 A50/2.8-MACRO A28/2 A35/2 A50/1.4 A135/2.8 A200/4 A*300/4 A35-105/3.5 A24-50/4 A70-210/4 TAMRON AD2= SP80-200/2.8 SP180/2.5 TOKINA AT-X PK= ATX28-85/3.5-4.5 ATX35-70/2.8 ATX60-120/2.8 ATX80-200/2.8 ATX100-300/4 ATX90/2.5 MACRO KIRON-LESTER DINE PK = 105/2.8-MACRO VIVITAR PK = 135/2.8-MACRO 28-85/4 NOFLEXAR AUTOBELLOWS PK = 60/4 105/4 |
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woodrim
Joined: 14 Jan 2010 Posts: 4060 Location: Charleston
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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woodrim wrote:
Maybe I should have said neither are multi-coated. _________________ Regards,
Woodrim |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
woodrim wrote: |
Maybe I should have said neither are multi-coated. |
MC a bit 'gymic' in proper light any single coated lens works same well and even uncoated lens works pretty okay , most uncoated lens what shows foggy pictures , reason is not lack of coating, but much dust inside or lot of small cleaning mark on surface. MC lenses give more realistic colors , contrast perhaps, but with PP really no matter. I have a few clean not scratched pre-war lens without coating, they are great picture takers, lack of coating not visible much on pictures or not visible at all depend by each frame. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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hifisapi
Joined: 25 Sep 2012 Posts: 941 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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hifisapi wrote:
Attila wrote: |
woodrim wrote: |
Maybe I should have said neither are multi-coated. |
MC a bit 'gymic' in proper light any single coated lens works same well and even uncoated lens works pretty okay , most uncoated lens what shows foggy pictures , reason is not lack of coating, but much dust inside or lot of small cleaning mark on surface. MC lenses give more realistic colors , contrast perhaps, but with PP really no matter. I have a few clean not scratched pre-war lens without coating, they are great picture takers, lack of coating not visible much on pictures or not visible at all depend by each frame. |
I couldnt disagree more. Coating and Multicoating on lenses is not a "gimick". Coating and MC reduces veiling flare even in shots where there is no bright object in the frame. Where coating and MC really helps is in lenses with many air glass surfaces like zooms and wide angles. And contrary to popular belief, you cant fix veiling flare in PP. _________________ ===========
ACQUIRED OVER 30 YEARS:
Cameras: DSLR=Pentax istDS FILM=Pentax SP, SP-F, ESII, SP1000, KX, K2
Lenses : Pentax M42 = Super Multi Coated Takumars 50/1.4 55/1.8 100/4-BELLOWS 500/4.5 1000/8 135-600/6.7 Pentax PK= SMC Pentax-Ks K17/4-FF Fisheye K18/3.5 K20/4 K24/3.5 K28/3.5 K28/2 K35/3.5 K35/2 K50/1.2 K50/1.4K 50/4-MACROK 55/1.8 K85/1.8 K100/4-MACRO K100/4-BELLOWS K105/2.8 K120/2.8 K135/3.5 K135/2.5 K150/4 K200/4 K400/5.6 K45-125/4K 85-210/4.5 Pentax PKM = SMC Pentax-M M40/2.8-Pancake M50/1.4 M75-150/4 M80-200/4.5 Pentax PKA= SMC Pentax-A A15/3.5 A50/2.8-MACRO A28/2 A35/2 A50/1.4 A135/2.8 A200/4 A*300/4 A35-105/3.5 A24-50/4 A70-210/4 TAMRON AD2= SP80-200/2.8 SP180/2.5 TOKINA AT-X PK= ATX28-85/3.5-4.5 ATX35-70/2.8 ATX60-120/2.8 ATX80-200/2.8 ATX100-300/4 ATX90/2.5 MACRO KIRON-LESTER DINE PK = 105/2.8-MACRO VIVITAR PK = 135/2.8-MACRO 28-85/4 NOFLEXAR AUTOBELLOWS PK = 60/4 105/4 |
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 10993 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
I think your selection process is moved into an area only you personally can access to decide which lens is better, unless you want to loan the two lenses to somebody else to decide.
Surely there are logistical differences in operation, different focus & aperture ring feels, general ease of use factors, etc.. Which is more pleasurable to use? Which do you think gives best results? These decisions can take quite some time... _________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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