Home

Please support mflenses.com if you need any graphic related work order it from us, click on above banner to order!
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist RegisterRegister ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in

Tokina AT-X 2.5/90mm "The Bokina II"
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
View previous topic :: View next topic  


PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I love my Series 1 version of the Bokina, and I've only found it to have one flaw: Veiling flare with light sources in frame. How does the Tokina version handle this?


PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mike Deep wrote:
I love my Series 1 version of the Bokina, and I've only found it to have one flaw: Veiling flare with light sources in frame. How does the Tokina version handle this?


Thats exactly the improvement in coatings Tokina made after getting the patent from Ponder & Best Inc. (Vivitar). This flares are well corrected...

A shot against the evening sun..




and another one in evening sun..




Maybe the next days i will show you a shot directly against the sun.. if possible.. Very Happy

Cheers
Henry


PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hinnerker wrote:
@Komet...

First of all, the APO Lanthar reached 1:1 if i remember correct.. the Tokina only 1:2... and i cant use the lens with the extension, because now its an EF Mount.. dont know if the normal extender is a ring or a lens construction like the old vivitar ...

So i can compair the lenses only at 1:2 ratio.

here are some shots and crops from an very old and crappy wrist watch.. to show the CA.. at 1:2 and @ 2.5, 2 Strobe units bouncing from the ceilling..
(sorry for not showing a Lange or Breitling watch.. Very Happy )




and a crop out of the pic..



@f4



Please keep in mind, that Tokina did change the coatings of the glases.. its other then the old Vivitar SEries 1 Bokina !! Definitely!

Cheers
Henry


Hello,
1:2 is enough for the test, thank you for the pictures.
But the light for your Boccia watch should have been harder or the watch surface should have been more reflecting(Lange better?), and you would have seen many CAs.
M.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
justtorchit wrote:
Great conversion hinnerker. You have most likely created a very unique and desireable iteration of this lens. I have never seen one of these converted to EOS before.

I have owned most of the macro we discuss on this forum, save for the expensive voigtlander and zeiss lenses (cant afford those yet). Some have been since sold but at any given time I have owned the Vivitar 90mm f/2.8 (Komine-made), Vivitar Series 1 90mm f/2.5, Kiron 105mm (also have a copy of the Lester Dine 105, and Vivitar Series 1 105), Nikon 105mm f/4, Nikon 55mm f/3.5. It was only recently I came across a Tokina 90mm f/2.5 Bokina (That wasn't priced at some outrageous amount of money).

The Tokina 90mm doesn't leave me bag. Honestly, I have no use to most of the others at this point. I love having them. I even take them out merely out of pity sometimes (It feels like Toy Story, where all the lenses are like "I wish he still used us...") But the fact is, the Tokina 90mm is just better. It is extremely crisp (appears to out-resolve my sensor fairly easily) and this includes being used at f/2.5. I have never owned a lens that made images this sharp wide open!

The only MF macro that has come to close to performing nearly as well in my regular shooting, across the board, has been my Kiron and Lester A. Dine 105mm lenses. Interest to note, I have owned two copies of the Vivitar Series 1 105mm, the supposed identical formula made by Kiron, for Vivitar. And neither of them were as sharp at early apertures as the Kiron/Dine. The Vivitar 105mm consistently showed CA where the Kiron/Dines showed FAR less. Hinnerker, I find your Kiron 105 results to be interesting. It appears as CoolTouch said, the Kiron 105 is the poorest performer of your test subjects. Could be the sample of your lens, or perhaps I managed to get a pretty good one! But regardless, the Tokina 90mm still bests all of these optically.

The Komine-made Vivitar 90mm I have found to be not all that impressive. It is a good lens, that can produce sharp results and some nice OOF effects, but nothing spectacular. And it suffers wide open.

Even the supposed identical formula Vivitar Series 1 90mm f/2.5 sits a step below the Tokina 90mm in my mind. Both produce outstanding sharpness wide open. Some say they find the Vivitar's OOF smoother due to a rounder aperture than the Tokina at f/2.8 and f/4 because due to the design of the aperture, the blades create a "sawblade" shape rather than a smooth circular shape with the Tokina. The Vivitar's remains roundish the entire range. I have found this to be a little difference and instead think the newer coatings of the Tokina to truly enhance the images and capabilities tenfold.

I cannot agree with those here on the forum more who are saying the Tokina 90mm, when it can be had at a reasonable price, is the best thing for the money. It's the best macro lens I have ever used.

Personal Ranking Macro Lenses
(Based on all factors in general use including Sharpness, CA, Aesthetic qualities, and more)

1. Tokina 90mm f/2.5
2. Lester A. Dine 105mm f/2.8 and Kiron 105mm f/2.8
3. Vivitar Series 1 90mm f/2.5
4. Vivitar Series 1 105mm f/2.5
5. Vivitar 90mm f/2.5 (sometimes labeled f/2.8, all Komine-made)


100% agree with your statements... as far as i can see it with the candidates..

And also the opinion mix you find in other forums all over the world, who are discussing different lenses theoretical and not making a comparison between the discussed lenses. If someone heard, a lens use the same formula, this must be equal in results.. IMHO wrong.

For example:
In a german Forum we did have a discussion about the Leica Summilux vs. SMC Takumar 1.4/50mm.. same optical formula..
Conclusion of the test was.. is near to Summilux.. a lot cheaper and with PP you can get results.. near to Summilux 1.4/50mm.. he called the Takumar Lens... "Takulux"... boah.

After finishing this comparison (i lent him my Summilux), the Author of the Thread did buy a Summilux.. why? Because the lens scheme is similar but the lens are not really equal and he loves the bokeh of the Summilux...

IMHO the same with the people who owns an old Vivitar Series 1 2.5/90mm... same optical formula by patent.. but forgot the improvements..

The Tokina is a far better lens as i thought before.. normally i dont like Tokina. I have got some wideangle lenses from Tokina and the are only
average for me, compaired to my favourit Leica Lenses.. i am a Leica Fanboy and did have the Makro Elmar 4/100mm (Helicoid-Version) and are using the Leica Makro Elmar R 2.8/60mm...

I am not a macro shooter.. for sure.. but i did search for a 90mm or longer to fill the gap in my toolbox.. and the Tokina is one of the first 3rd brand lenses, i can go with in total.. maybe better then my old Leica Elmar

So its interesting to me, how this old Vivitar and especially the Tokina AT-X 2.5/90mm fights against a new Formula.. is the Voigtlander APo Lanthar 4 times better as the difference in price indicates?

Cheers
Henry


PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Agreed the Tokina 90/2.5 Macro is just a touch sharper then the Kiron,but my Kiron shoots fine at infintiy.Perhaps a difference in copies....

Last edited by Boomer Depp on Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:55 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
While I agree the Tokina 90/2.5 is just a touch sharper then the Kiron.I find my copy of the Kiron shoots macro,closeups,portrait and to infinity surprisingly well,contrary to what you said that the Kiron is a macro specific lens.Here is a comparison against the Nikkor 105/2.5 AI-S which shoots well at infinity...BTW The first shots of the fence posts the sun was directly at my back... the last shots at 150 meters was almost into the sun,with the sun directly above the house....to compare two photos full size click on the picture you wish to compare,then click on the picture you wish to compare it to.

Kiron 105 at 10 meters 100% crop


Nikkor 105 at 10 meters 100% crop


Kiron 105 at 10 meters 200% crop


Nikkor 105 at 10 meters 200% crop


Kiron 105 at 75 meters 100% crop


Nikkor 105 at 75 meters 100% crop

Kiron 105 at 75 meters 200% crop


Nikkor 105 at 75 meters 200% crop


Kiron 105 at 150 meters 100% crop

Nikkor 105 at 150 meters 100% crop


Kiron 105 at 150 meters 200% crop


Nikkor 105 at 150 meters 200% crop


Kiron 105 at 150 meters 300% crop


Nikkor 105 at 150 meters 300% crop


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Boomer Depp,

thanks for adding and sharing your comment regarding the Kiron 2.5/105mm..

this examples looks better then that what i have realized with my copy..

But i did talk about the Kiron 2.8/105mm in the comparison and dont know, if this f2.8 lens is identical to the 2.5 Kiron... sorry.
Could you please add pics of your Kiron lens? Thanks for that.

What i firstly did realize in test, shows the following sequenze in the OOF CA's..

@f2.8


As you can see, the Vivitar and the Panagor are identical in the OOF CA..
The Kiron is different to that. Instead of greenish OOF CA, the lens produce a curious yellow CA... wide open..

Stop down the lens to f4 didnt change anything..



IMHO this is one of the reasons, why the shots with the Kiron have less contrast and clearity on all stages.. and make this lens soft wide open..
also shooting infinity is poor on my copy in comparison to the Tokina.
The boring shot with the Tokina showing the TV Tower can give you a better imagination what the Tokina can do. The TV Tower is 1.5 KM away.. so add the atmosphere influences. The Kiron shows average IQ.. for a macro lens in distance shots.. nothing special.

But maybe i have got only a bad copy for these test..

Cheers
Henry


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Henry and Good Day to you!

I'm sorry,I never stated what the aperture is of my Kiron 105....my lens is the same as yours the 2.8/105....I've never heard of a Kiron 2.5/105....

I was only showing the Kiron 2.8/105 is perfectly capable of taking shots to infinity.

I can take some pictures of greater distance if you prefer...When the sun comes up,some shots from 4-14 nautical miles across and up the Puget Sound if you prefer longer shots then presented earlier.

I do know my copy of the Kiron 2.8/105 is perfectly capable of shooting to infinity.It can be surpassed negligibly by other macro lens when doing true macro work,but only negligibly.

Your probably correct that your copy of the lens might not be up to par,who knows....

Kind regards,

Boomer

BTW....The bottom link in my signature has a picture of the Kiron 2.8/105.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
komet wrote:
...............
Hello,
1:2 is enough for the test, thank you for the pictures.
But the light for your Boccia watch should have been harder or the watch surface should have been more reflecting(Lange better?), and you would have seen many CAs.
M.


Mysterious..

ok, maybe iam blind, but i cant see many CAs as you stated..

here the shooting situation.. two Metz 402 strobes.. one is bouncing against the ceiiling, the second one is for direct light.. no diffusor.. a strong light situation.. or not? What would you say?



And now some pics, taken in exactly this light condition to research what you mean..



The badge has nearly the same size as a wrist watch..
Here some crops ... cant see many CA's @f11..



Also not in another crop.. the ring in the backround is silver.. !







OK, lets take another badge in this situation..



And again, i cant see the lots of CA which make this lens unuseable for shooting metals..





Sorry for my totally different meaning about your statement.
I think, this shots speaks another language..

Maybe you did have a bad copy or are talking about the Series One Vivitar version, which i dont know..

Cheers
Henry


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
hinnerker wrote:


ok, maybe iam blind, but i cant see many CAs as you stated..


The badge has nearly the same size as a wrist watch..
Here some crops ... cant see many CA's @f11..

[

Sorry for my totally different meaning about your statement.
I think, this shots speaks another language..

Maybe you did have a bad copy or are talking about the Series One Vivitar version, which i dont know..

Cheers
Henry


Hello,
congratulations, you must have a very special copy of the Tokina lens.
M.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
komet wrote:
hinnerker wrote:


ok, maybe iam blind, but i cant see many CAs as you stated..


The badge has nearly the same size as a wrist watch..
Here some crops ... cant see many CA's @f11..

[

Sorry for my totally different meaning about your statement.
I think, this shots speaks another language..

Maybe you did have a bad copy or are talking about the Series One Vivitar version, which i dont know..

Cheers
Henry


Hello,
congratulations, you must have a very special copy of the Tokina lens.
M.


Unfortuneately i have only this single copy.. would be interesting to proof with another one.. but as far as i can see this copy is great.. also for metals and medails.. Very Happy

Regards
Henry


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excellent results in this thread! The Bokina really shines. I can only add to what Boomer Depp said about the Kiron 105. My copy of the Vivitar Series1 105/2.5 which is Kiron made is very sharp and contrasty at infinity also as macro distances. I can't compare it to many lenses since I only have a few, but my first impressions were that it's at least as sharp and even contrastier then CZJ Sonnar 135/3.5.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
To sort of add to what Symphonic said, the Kiron 105/2.5 that one often reads of is the Vivitar S1 or the Dine made by Kiron. I was wondering if they were the same optical formula.


Henry, one of the things I look closely for in my photos, especially if they show reflections off metal or other shiny surfaces, is CA. And after close examination of your latest set of photos, my conclusion is that your Tokina's CA is extremely well controlled. Essentially none. That's quite a remarkable lens. I'd like to see a comparison of the Tokina 90/2.5 against the Vivitar S1 90/2.5 some time, just to see how big of a difference the new coating formulation makes.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Best macrolens ever for me... Reply with quote
Thanks for all the info and comparisation shots.

I am using the Tokina for macro's over a year now and I think it is truely a great lens and earned it's reputation all the way. For some examples of my pictures taken with the Bokina look http://flickriver.com/photos/elchivato/tags/TOKINA/

Enjoy


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Great set of macros..

Cheers
Henry


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How does the Tokina 90/2.5 compare to the Tamron 90/2.5?


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Swappo wrote:
How does the Tokina 90/2.5 compare to the Tamron 90/2.5?


That's a great question, and I think we might be able to arrive at an answer -- at least for macro work -- if nobody here has both. Even though I live in the US, I have a 10-Euro note. I can take pics of the note, or any portion of it with my Tamron 52B, and Henry can take the same pics with his Tokina, then we can compare the two sets of images.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Great question and great idea from cooltouch.. could be mine... Very Happy

Please do first shot and i try to do the same part of the note under nearby conditions (light, extension of the tubus, scale etc..)

Intercontinental notes shooting.. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Who is the fugleman?

Cheers
Henry..


PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Swappo wrote:
How does the Tokina 90/2.5 compare to the Tamron 90/2.5?


I guess 10 test will give 10 differents results
as much as lens variation or personal bias
here are test from respected french 'chasseur d' Images'
centre is center - bord is border
acceptable -good - very good - excellent
moyen - bon - tres bon - excellent






PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for posting the review, Poilu! Very interesting results. I guess, according to chasseur d' Images the Tamron and Nikkor did best. Personally, I suspect the Tokina they obtained may not have been a typical example. I've seen too many amazing images taken with that lens to rate it simply "bon."

Henry, I'll start a new thread on the subject of testing the Tamron and Tokina, and I'll post pics taken with the Tamron. I mounted the camera to a copy stand. I have taken pics of the 10 Euro note from the tip of my copy stand, which allowed me to include almost all of the note in the frame, and then at 1:2, which is maximum magnification with the Tamron without tubes or TC. I will post images taken at f/2.5, f/4, f/8 and f/16. I took images at all apertures from f/2.5 to f/32 and can post others if desired. I used Live View to pre-release the mirror and confirm focusing accuracy. I'll also take a couple of pics of a shiny new coin so that we can have a look at its CA control.

My camera is a Canon XS (1000D) with a 10mp APS-C sized sensor, which renders images with a max resolution of 3888x2592 pixels. My in-camera sharpness is set to 7 and contrast to 0 (neutral). I will not perform any PP other than cropping and resizing images.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
.....

My camera is a Canon XS (1000D) with a 10mp APS-C sized sensor, which renders images with a max resolution of 3888x2592 pixels. My in-camera sharpness is set to 7 and contrast to 0 (neutral). I will not perform any PP other than cropping and resizing images.


Sharpness to 7 ??? Whow.. Shocked
Me, i only take the standard profile with sharpness to 3! otherwise you will get strong stair-artefacts on highlighted edges..

I have two cams.. EOS 5D MKII (FF, 22mp) or an EOS 400D (APS-C, 10mp)... the 400D has no LiveView, so its a bit difficult to nail the focus with the cam... and i havent use this cam for a long time.. in all my cams the sharpness is only 3 (Standard, rest 0), shooting RAW with this presets, no PP, only transfering from DPP to CS3, resizing and "save for web" in Photoshop without any PP.

Thats my normal "workflow"...

In terms of resolution i can switch down the 5D MKII to SRAW1 Mode.. 3861x2574 pixels to make it compairable?

What kind of light do you prefer and its arrangement?

Cheers
Henry


PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I can pit the Series 1 90/2.5 and the Tamron 90/2.5 against each other if that would help.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Mike...

that would be great so we can concentrate the 90mm in one Thread..

In another Thread we try to make an intercontinental shooting Tamroon vs Tokina.

Cheers
Henry


PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:
Swappo wrote:
How does the Tokina 90/2.5 compare to the Tamron 90/2.5?


I guess 10 test will give 10 differents results
as much as lens variation or personal bias
here are test from respected french 'chasseur d' Images'
centre is center - bord is border
acceptable -good - very good - excellent
moyen - bon - tres bon - excellent



Hello,
this is very interesting and confirms my experiences, the Nikon MF 2,8/105 is the winner.
M.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
komet wrote:
Hello,
this is very interesting and confirms my experiences, the Nikon MF 2,8/105 is the winner.
M.


But that test only evaluates sharpness. In the bokeh department the Bokina most probably still wins. Smile
I also think it's silly that they didn't test 2.5-5.6 at macro distance, but only at infinity. I use my Bokina most at 2.5-5.6 (only on higher magnification I have to stop down more usually).

Last edited by AhamB on Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 2 of 6