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This lens is made for Tomioka?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
About normals tomioka made lenses, almost all of us did see that place before, but here is going..


http://www.tomioka.de/tomioka_e_main.htm.


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm a little hesitant to post these Tomioka shots because I'm afraid I'll just be told that they aren't really Tomioka!
I think these lenses kill.









[IMG]http://i192.photobucket.com
/albums/z157/guido-sardonyx/_JK_2621_zpsgcw7t7ms.jpg[/IMG]







PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
papasito wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
That's a good point Dave. One factor that makes it harder to make any meaningful assessment is the vast number of lenses that sellers claim are Tomioka but probably aren't.


Some sellers often "rebranded" almost all chinon lenses to sell like a tomioka made ones.

And what?

They are not Zeiss, nor Leitz or Leica, Nikon, Canon, Minolta, etc.

Perhaps Komine made better lenses or at least similar quality ones as Tomioka.


Yes, these Chinons are almost always called 'Tomiokas' on ebay now.









Are these Tomiokas? I really have no idea. Are they good lenses? Not really, judging by the copies I've tried, just typical third party stuff, not awful but not great, not as good as the equivalent from the major makers.


PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
papasito wrote:
About normals tomioka made lenses, almost all of us did see that place before, but here is going..


Well this site is about the best proof that this is an rather strange story.

There was a test from the German "ColorFoto" magazine in the late 1970's of several superfast "normal" lenses of that time (F1.2) and also the Yashica one (most likely Tomioka made) was tested among others from Canon, Nikon, Minolta, etc. Most of the story mentioned on the German Tomioka site is based on this ColorFoto test of the Yashinon ML lens in Y/C mount but certainly mixed up with information either freely invented and also taken from the earlier Yashinon DS lens in M42. It is also stated that the earlier M42 DS lens is identical to the later ML lens whereas the ML lens is rather a budget version of the Contax lens, most probably far better than the earlier DS lens in M42. It is also hardly believable that Contax has taken the formula for their Japanese Zeiss Planar 55/1.2 lens from Tomioka. I would it rather expect the other way round. Most likely the fusion of Yashica/Contax/Tomioka within the Kyocera company has brought Tomioka to a higher level. Otherwise it's not understandable that earlier Yashinon DS/DX (M42) lenses are far below the ML line in (Y/C) mount.

Bottom line is that the Yashinon ML in this mentioned Test report was rather in the middle field and should be therefore considered as very good. So at least this specific one "Tomioka lens", the Yashinon ML 55mm/F1.2 has to be considered as comparable to the other lenses from the other well known camera manufacturers from that time. By the way, the "best" was the Canon SSC lens and the "worst" was the Konica Hexanon.
However, the differences haven't been very dramatically at all and we all know that all this lenses are far away from perfect when used fully open. The name "Tomioka" wasn't mentioned at all in this ColorFoto test. It was simply the Yashinon ML lens.

So at least in that case Tomioka already prooved in the late 1970's that they have been able to produce lenses up to the standard of these times at least for Yashica. I don't really know if comparable lenses from Tomioka in M42 which have been produced at least 5 years earlier are at the same level in every aspect. I've tested none of them. I also don't know whether Tomioka really produced all of the mentioned Chinon (Revuenon) and Cosinon lenses as stated on this site, nor do I know if those lenses are really identical to the older Yashica DS lens as stated there.

Finally, that does not necessarily mean that EVERY lens produced from them is up to the standard as my already mentioned lens test with an (most likely) Tomioka produced Yashinon DX lens shows.

It is more than well known that all Yashinon ML lenses in Y/C mount are rather good (sometimes even excellent) and there is evidence that in the later lens tests as from 1980 onwards those lenses are always listed among the lenses from the well known camera producers like Canon, Minolta, Nikon, etc. at similar quality levels. Everything else must be considered as a "myth".

Last edited by tb_a on Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:16 am    Post subject: production to order Reply with quote
If Tomioka was acontractor providing whatever the customer specified, one would expect that glass types, curvatures, tolerances in grinding, mounting and final quality control would vary according to cost limits.

Some customers might specify looser final controls since their customers might not be too demanding and replacement might be cheaper. Others might accept more production line rejects in exchange for higher prices and ultimately a better reputation.

If this is the case, both using the contractors name as a quality seal - or rejecting all the contractors products as rubbish will be without foundation.

p.


PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Exactly Paul, Tomioka, like all the other makers, could make whatever the customer asked for. If the customer wanted cheap they got cheap, if they wanted top quality with the best level of QC, they could have that too.

This doesn't mean that the cheap stuff Tomioka made is somehow better than the cheap stuff made by others, which is what some unscrupulous ebay sellers want you to think and has sadly grown into an urban legend now.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What amazes me is how little real information is available. Seems like most is conjecture. There are likely to be many people still alive in Japan that worked at these factories in various capacities. I can still speak with knowledge about places I've worked since 1968; I suspect they could too.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Japan in the 1950s and 60s and even the 70s was much like China today - lots and lots of small cottage industries. We know there were upwards of 30 lensmakers, many of them were probably very small operations.

This makes it much harder. The histories of the big makers like Tokina and Tamron shouldn't be too elusive, but for others, good luck.

Tomioka existed as far back as ww1, they signed a deal after ww2 to provide lenses for Yashica and that was the great bulk of their business - Yashica TLRs all have Tomioka lenses. Yashica bought Tomioka out in the late 60s and in the late 70s they signed a deal to produce lenses for Zeiss. Yashica were bought out by Kyocera in 1985 but the glass factory, formerly Tomioka continued to produce lenses. No idea if that factory is still in business today in one form or another.

Finding out much more than this broad history is gonna require a lot of research by a Japanese speaker methinks.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
We have made some progress distinguishing Cosina, Chinon and Tomioka in case of 1.4/55mm M42 lenses. Please check:
http://forum.mflenses.com/my-favourite-50mm-cosinon-55-1-4-t70916,start,30.html


PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The main thing to take from that thread is that Chinon, Cosina and Tomioka were all based in Nagano Prefecture and co-operated, Chinon in particular, specialised in making the metal components for lens barrels therefore it is often best to simply say a lens comes from one of the Nagano factories rather than try to attribute it to any one in particular as it is highly likely one maker made parts that were than assembled by another maker.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The main thing to take from that thread is that Chinon, Cosina and Tomioka were all based in Nagano Prefecture and co-operated, Chinon in particular, specialised in making the metal components for lens barrels therefore it is often best to simply say a lens comes from one of the Nagano factories rather than try to attribute it to any one in particular as it is highly likely one maker made parts that were than assembled by another maker.


What I found out was that there is no real evidence that Chinon ever produced SLR lenses at all. Primarily Chinon was a camera and not a lens producer. Most probably they also produced some metal parts for the lens production. On one site was mentioned that Chinon produced also a tele converter. Maybe they bought some glass from others.

Tomioka Co. started as a mass producer for SLR lenses apprx. 1960 and was taken over by Yashica 1968. Yashica/Tomioka was taken over by Kyocera 1983 and was then renamed into Optec Kyocera Co., Ltd. 1991 and is in existence up to now.
The cooperation betw. Zeiss and Yashica/Tomioka Co. started 1974.
Most of this information can be found on the Japanese site of Optec Kyocera.
Obviously Mr. Tomioka (the founder of the original factory) was an optical engineer who used to work also for a company which was the predecessor of Nikon sometimes after WW I. The Tomioka Co. was founded 1949 as its predecessor company was totally destroyed in 1945. The only other evidence I found was that Mr. Tomioka was also a co-author of two books about optical lenses in 1956 and 1957. That's more or less all. It's rather cumbersome to find these information as it's in Japanese only and my knowledge of the Japanese language has it's limits. Wink

Cosina was founded 1959 as "Nicot Inc." and some years later they changed to "Cosina". They always have been a camera AND lens producer. So this company is somehow different to the other two. I think the only connex between Cosina and Tomioka is that both have produced for Zeiss Ikon in the 1970's. I didn't find anything else which pointed to a direct cooperation between these two companies. However, only persons involved in the business from that time might actually know the very truth.

So it more or less is consistent with your source of information besides that I am not too sure about their real relationship, particularly between Yashica(Tomioka) and Cosina.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Thomas, that is all consistent with what I have read. Chinon specialised in metal barrel parts so they probably supplied these to several other factories.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine a situation where Chinon make the barrel, Tomioka supply the glass and Cosina assemble and collimate the lens from these Chinon and Tomioka parts.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Thanks Thomas, that is all consistent with what I have read. Chinon specialised in metal barrel parts so they probably supplied these to several other factories.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine a situation where Chinon make the barrel, Tomioka supply the glass and Cosina assemble and collimate the lens from these Chinon and Tomioka parts.


Everything is possible. However, the likelihood that Cosina received glass from Tomioka although they had their own glass production is rather low from my point of view. That's obviously our only difference in the assumption of the situation.

But I think there are more important things on earth than this issue anyway. Wink


PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, this is very far down the list of things to worry about, close to the bottom in fact. Wink

Myself, I am content to say a lens is from Nagano without worrying about which particular factory in Nagano.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
We have made some progress distinguishing Cosina, Chinon and Tomioka in case of 1.4/55mm M42 lenses. Please check:
http://forum.mflenses.com/my-favourite-50mm-cosinon-55-1-4-t70916,start,30.html

This is very true and I am grateful.

woodrim wrote:
What amazes me is how little real information is available. Seems like most is conjecture. There are likely to be many people still alive in Japan that worked at these factories in various capacities. I can still speak with knowledge about places I've worked since 1968; I suspect they could too.

Yes, I've often wished there were more older Japanese contributors to this site. The knowledge will die off. If only we reached out instead of lapsing into a " this is very far down the list of things to worry about" thing. No one ever says "to me" this is very far down the list of things to worry about. It's just ideological banter that excludes many who have other opinions and interests. I like the Tomioka mysteries and controversies. For others here it's clearly a splinter in the eye.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jeff Zen wrote:
I like the Tomioka mysteries and controversies. For others here it's clearly a splinter in the eye.


No, it's not - at least not for me.

I simply cannot understand why some people create some myths and stories beyond rationality. That has nothing to do with Tomioka as such but is also true for Zeiss, Leitz or take any other lens producer instead.

From my point of view there are some outstanding products, many good to very good ones and also crap ones, independently who the producer or the designer was. Also any statement that every Zeiss or Leitz lens is automatically state of the art is simply not true. A excellent lens depends more on the designer and not on the producer as long as the producer is following certain standards. So at the end of the day an excellent designed lens may be excellent but can easily turn out to be crap because the producer didn't adhere to the standards. As simple as that. The other way round also happened many times, i.e. that a producer who is rather known to deliver cheap products has also produced the one or the other excellent lens also independently of the designer.

Furthermore there are some lenses from various producers that are known to deliver "creative" pictures but are below standard from the technical optical point of view. That's a different story. However, the principles of designer and producer relationship apply here as well.

So all what I am trying to say is that although there are producers known to deliver generally better or generally not so good products, they can deliver some products which do not follow the general rule.

Therefore for me the only issue is if a lens produces pictures which are nice for my eyes independently of the designer or the producer or the name printed on the lens. Everything else is totally unimportant.

Generally speaking you will be rather on the safe side if you look for high standard lens producers, however there is no proof whatsoever that Tomioka can be considered alike, at least not before the cooperation started between Yashica and Zeiss Ikon. Before that also Tomioka/Yashica has delivered some rather low standard lenses but very good ones too. There is evidence enough for that and that is no myth at all. Finally you cannot deny the fact that the hint that a lens might have been produced by Tomioka is only used for pricing reasons nowadays. You only have to search for Tomioka on *bay and will see that I am right.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Two points:

1. Who cares who made a particular lens, just use it and appreciate it.

2. Tomioka is a label used to try to make low value lenses fetch higher prices - it's a scam dreamed up by unscrupulous ebay sellers.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

2. Tomioka is a label used to try to make low value lenses fetch higher prices - it's a scam dreamed up by unscrupulous ebay sellers.

And grind all those rear elements to make it look more real right?

Photo by Urmelchen https://www.flickr.com/photos/urmelchen/6802281344/


PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What was that comment intended to mean?

You know full well that there are masses of lenses listed on ebay that are claimed as Tomiokas other than the 1.4 and 1.2 55s that have the flat rear element.

Chinon 2.8/28s listed as Tomioka, this is a poor lens, regardless of who made it, but they are trying to charge 30-60ukp for it due to application of this Tomioka label:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auto-CHINON-Fast-28mm-F-2-8-TOMIOKA-Lens-M42-Mount-Sharp-Excellent-/291518634527?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43dfdd5a1f

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auto-Chinon-28mm-f-2-8-Rare-TOMIOKA-Large-Front-Optic-M42-Mount-/151734638375?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item235416d727

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auto-CHINON-Fast-28mm-F-2-8-TOMIOKA-M42-Mount-Wide-Prime-Sharp-Excellent-/151757472357?hash=item2355734265

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M42-PENTAX-SCREW-FIT-CHINON-28MM-F2-8-A-M-TOMIOKA-LENS-sony-a-nex-canon-d-digi-/231377675460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35df2f24c4

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M42-PENTAX-SCREW-FIT-CHINON-28MM-F2-8-A-M-TOMIOKA-LENS-sony-a-nex-canon-d-digi-/251601820702?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a94a31c1e

So are you just trolling?


PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Although i personally enjoy this "To Be or Not To Be Tomioka" endless debate
(less so when it becomes vehement...)

I 've decided that if it says TOMIOKA on the name ring, it is,
and if it doesn't say TOMIOKA on the name ring, it ain't...


PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mir wrote:
I 've decided that if it says TOMIOKA on the name ring, it is,
and if it doesn't say TOMIOKA on the name ring, it ain't...


That's not a bad policy to be honest. Smile
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