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My favourite ~50mm - Cosinon 55/1.4
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
darynthe wrote:


In fact, a camera history book I read said that the first Canons were supplied with Nikkor lenses. In those old days what one day would become Nikon was working in optics only. When Canon was successful they started making their own cameras.


Yeah but that was in ancient times when Canon had no it's own lens manufacturing facility, so Canon and Nikon were not rivals back then as they became later on.


PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Snowcat wrote:
Pancolart wrote:
I must give quick response: believe it or not, i was fully honest, no sarcasm intended. Now i will read your reply in detail.


I am sorry for this misunderstanding. The thing is - Cosina and Tomioka both were designers and manufacturers of the lenses. Unlike tens of others who only gave their name to the lenses, like Rikenon, Chinon, Sears, e.t.c. Cosina and Tomioka were rivals, so it is unimaginable that one of them would produce lens, designed by the other. Can you imagine a Nikon Nikkor lens, designed by Canon? I cannot. The same situation was with Cosina and Tomioka. They both designed lenses based on similar (but not the same) optical scheme, which in fact is biotar-like, not something truly original.


This is really great. You manage to breakthrough Tomioka / Cosinon standstill debate. There are few of us on forum genuinely interested in the subject but piece of puzzle was missing. I think this is it.

What is your opinion on possibility somewhere in time RICOH (Rikenon) and CHINON began making their own 1.4/55 M42 models?
Especially CHINON model bellow, many times branded Revuenon, but never branded Cosinon or Tomioka.


Few more questions arise. What about the starting period. Who was first making 1.4/55 model? Who copied from who and is there a possibility COSINA (or Tomioka) initially started distributing another's product but then developed its own variation.
If so, which is that first model?


PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart, now you are pushing me into a field of uncertainty...

I do not know who made the first "flat bottomed" 55mm design. Both Tomioka and Cosina were quite strong back then and they both had enough brainpower in their possession to do it. Maybe they both "borrowed" the idea from someone else...

Look here http://www.alphatraveller.org/gallery/upload/2015/01/10/20150110112241-0fd848a8.png

This lens type is a modified Biotar and it was quite widely used... Nikon, Canon, Leica, Zeiss used this scheme. It is very hard to determine who was the first one to invent it...

As for others, as far as I know, all other lenses 55/1.4 with flat bottom element from "smaller" brands are made by Cosina or Tomioka. I cannot prove this so take this as my personal knowledge only. But I was really interested in this and performed quite a serious research.

There is one more difference between Cosina and Tomioka lenses. I am not 100% sure about this but it SEEMS to be true. At least my Cosinon and my friend's Tominon prove this. Cosina made lenses have meters on their distance scale written above feet, while Tomioka wrote feet above meters. Based on this your lens is Tomioka made.


PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is a most interesting observation regarding the feet/metre markings.
If correct, then the Chinon and Auto Revuenon are Tomioka while the Mamiya and Rikenon are Cosina in origin (assuming that Mamiya and Ricoh did not make them themselves)
OH


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am always amused about discussions concerning the Tomioka myth.
Fact is that these Lenses have been rather low end and have been produced in masses by Tomioka under various brand names as already mentioned.
Every similar lens from a serious camera and lens maker like Minolta/Canon/Nikon/Pentax is far better and this was proven by several tests in magazines like Color Foto (Germany) in the 70's of the last century.
There is also an interesting article of www.kameradoktor.de called "The fairy tale of Tomioka" (unfortunately only in German) on how the hype on these lenses started to increase the marked prices for these old lenses.

A little history: Tomioka was bought by Yashica in 1968 and then Yashica started to license from Zeiss for Contax cameras. In 1983 Kyocera took over the whole bunch until 2005 the whole camera business ceased.

Nevertheless for low budget such old Tomioka lenses may fulfill the needs when found for a few bucks. It always depends on the expectation of the photographer.

However, I would not buy such a lens even for little money. I prefer to use my Minolta/Pentax/Topcon lenses from that period of time as they are far better in every aspect. But this is also a matter of taste.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a, hype has nothing to do with me. And Tomioka "myth" too, as I have Cosinon, which is made by Cosina.

Some time ago I decided to buy a fast ~50mm and started to borrow lenses from different people to evaluate them. The first one that I've got my hands on was Olympus Zuiko 50/1.2. I did not liked it, nor the picture nor the ergonomics. Then I've borrowed a Topcor 50/1.4. I liked it alot more then Zuiko but it's price was too high for me. And then I tried Cosinon 55/1.4 and was CHARMED by this lens! I liked pictures from it alot more then from both Zuiko and Topcor. I've heard nothing about it back then and started to dig information as I like to know about as much as possible about the lenses that I like.

So, in my case, I've tried this lens, then bought it and only after that I've read all the information I could find about it. So "myths" have nothing to do with all that.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The fact is that Canon FD 50 1.4 ,Rokkor 50 1.4 and Pentax M 50 1.4 can be found to the same price as those supposed Tomioka.
Where it counts ( wide apertures) ,they perform better with a FF camera (A7). That said, many lenses which I like are not "performers".

If you just consider M42 1.4 lenses, the Takumars and Mamiya are still more expensive than the "tomiokas".


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Snowcat, I didn't mean you.
My observation was of general nature as others in this thread have been wondering if those lenses have been produced by Tomioka.
All I was saying is that these old Tomioka lenses are not really good and heavily overpriced for mystical reasons.
I said nothing about Cosina. However, what I've seen from your fotos here it's not a bad lens at all.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:

If you just consider M42 1.4 lenses, the Takumars and Mamiya are still more expensive than the "tomiokas".


I have just checked on ebay. Takumars are offered from around 50 up to 100 Euro and "Tomiokas" for 125 up to 200 Euro. Wink

So I cannot confirm what you are stating here.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is not the market here.
All those 55 1.4 are about 50-60 euros. 125 to 250 euros is simply ridiculous.
No Takumar 50 1.4 or Mamiya 55 1.4 under 100 euros.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:
That is not the market here.
No Takumar 50 1.4 or Mamiya 55 1.4 under 100 euros.


That's funny. Even from Japan they are sold for approximately 80 Euros although Japan is a rather expensive market.
I've seen one "Super Takumar" for that price in a "like new" condition with the original metal cap.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
This is a most interesting observation regarding the feet/metre markings.
If correct, then the Chinon and Auto Revuenon are Tomioka while the Mamiya and Rikenon are Cosina in origin (assuming that Mamiya and Ricoh did not make them themselves)
OH

+1


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
memetph wrote:
That is not the market here.
No Takumar 50 1.4 or Mamiya 55 1.4 under 100 euros.


That's funny. Even from Japan they are sold for approximately 80 Euros although Japan is a rather expensive market.
I've seen one "Super Takumar" for that price in a "like new" condition with the original metal cap.


Not many people here will buy such a common lens from Japan except perhaps for a rare 8 elements model.
The market is pretty dynamic on internet , in shops and on the Warsaw bi monthly photofair.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Distance marking ? Ok watch IR focusing mark . This makes sense.
But feet under/over meters ?


PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A quick look in a couple of boxes of short lenses turned these up with the meter mark on top. The majority of my lenses are the other way which is a lot more common.
Top, L to R
Vivitar 28 / 2.8 Komine. Vivitar 28 / 1.9 Tokina. Soligor CD 28 / 2 Tokina
Bottom L to R
Mamiya Sekor 55 / 1.8 Mamiya Sekor 50 / 2.8 Tefnon 28 / 2.8



PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:
Distance marking ? Ok watch IR focusing mark . This makes sense.
But feet under/over meters ?

I said that I am not sure about this. I've read this more then 2 times on different sites and it is true for Cosinon and Tominon lenses, which are, for sure, come from Cosina and Tomioka. So it looks like truth. But still...


PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
We may never get to the bottom of this..... nor is it really of any importance....

But lets listen to what the man has to say.... he said he did put some time and effort into research ...


1968 - M42 - A/M switch - 8 blades - MDF 50cm - ∅55
Sold it a while ago...




M42 - A/M switch - 6 blades - MDF 35cm - ∅55
Love it, kept it...



PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, if f1.2 lens was mentioned already, what would you say about this:



I think we can conclude that at that point Tomioka made glass and Cosina made barrel for this lens. Or there was other third party maker that produced barrels for all these lenses sold under different names. This would explain all the similarities between these lenses.
I think at some point either Tomioka sold the rights for these designs to Cosina (and may be other makers as well) or Cosina really invented its own formulas.

Different mechanics could be explained by evolution of the design, different makers of the barrels or different requirements from the "end" brands.
Different optics also can be explained by the evolution of the design: the very early Mamiya has a convex rear element, there are some Sears and Rikenons with very slightly convex rear element and I am sure there are a lot more internal differences.


PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo wrote:
Well, if f1.2 lens was mentioned already, what would you say about this:



I think we can conclude that at that point Tomioka made glass and Cosina made barrel for this lens. Or there was other third party maker that produced barrels for all these lenses sold under different names. This would explain all the similarities between these lenses.
I think at some point either Tomioka sold the rights for these designs to Cosina (and may be other makers as well) or Cosina really invented its own formulas.

Different mechanics could be explained by evolution of the design, different makers of the barrels or different requirements from the "end" brands.
Different optics also can be explained by the evolution of the design: the very early Mamiya has a convex rear element, there are some Sears and Rikenons with very slightly convex rear element and I am sure there are a lot more internal differences.


That really does throw the cat amongst the pigeons doesn't it.
OH


PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
That really does throw the cat amongst the pigeons doesn't it.
OH


Smile


PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is a simple explanation for it that saves the story coherence: Cosina did not make the body above. Cosina did not make any 1.2/55 M42 lens. It was an early order of one company from another.
See serial of those lenses. COSINON Tomioka only 1000 pieces. Cosina demanded slight adaptation of Tomioka lens outer body look to fit COSINA line of that period.
COSINA of course later developed its own Pentax bayonet 1.2/55mm lens.

Do not forget we just switched from 1.4/55 to 1.2/55. If we add 1.7/55mm we might have to find another supplement explanation.


PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
There is a simple explanation for it that saves the story coherence: Cosina did not make the body above. Cosina did not make any 1.2/55 M42 lens. It was an early order of one company from another.
See serial of those lenses. COSINON Tomioka only 1000 pieces. Cosina demanded slight adaptation of Tomioka lens outer body look to fit COSINA line of that period.
COSINA of course later developed its own Pentax bayonet 1.2/55mm lens.

Do not forget we just switched from 1.4/55 to 1.2/55. If we add 1.7/55mm we might have to find another supplement explanation.


This explanation can be valid for f1.4 lenses as well, at least for the early all-metal variations.
As for f1.7 lenses - I think we have zero evidences of their relation to Tomioka.


PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo wrote:
Pancolart wrote:
There is a simple explanation for it that saves the story coherence: Cosina did not make the body above. Cosina did not make any 1.2/55 M42 lens. It was an early order of one company from another.
See serial of those lenses. COSINON Tomioka only 1000 pieces. Cosina demanded slight adaptation of Tomioka lens outer body look to fit COSINA line of that period.
COSINA of course later developed its own Pentax bayonet 1.2/55mm lens.

Do not forget we just switched from 1.4/55 to 1.2/55. If we add 1.7/55mm we might have to find another supplement explanation.


This explanation can be valid for f1.4 lenses as well, at least for the early all-metal variations.
As for f1.7 lenses - I think we have zero evidences of their relation to Tomioka.


Indeed, solid evidence would only be Tomioka-Chinon signed contract / license of cooperation or Tomioka - Chinon branded 1.7/55mm lens. Funny is, meters / feet principle can also be applied on 1.7/55 M42 lenses.
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