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The Big Sankyo Kohki/Komura Thread
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:06 pm    Post subject: The Big Sankyo Kohki/Komura Thread Reply with quote
As a user/collector of Soligor primes I have enjoyed a lot the big Soligor-centric thread.
I have another interest: Komura lenses.
Everything about the various Komura objectives is scattered in many threads, and I found that on the Web there is not much about them, apart from the catalog on cameraeccentric site.
I am thinking of a big thread where we can post the pictures of our lenses (and, why not, pictures shot WITH them), plus all the info the more experienced users have found.
What do you think?
I don't have all the pictures with me, but I have a good number of Komura lenses with me at the moment.
I am far from home, where most of my collection is stored, however I have managed to accumulate five more examples since I left, plus two that are on their way from Japan.
So far I have tried the two 200mm and the 300mm with mixed results, one (the 500mm) with rather poor results, and I have been extremely satisfied by the quality of the 2.8/135mm.
Wide open, and at minimum focusing distance, it trumps the Apo Telezenitar. Not bad!
If there is any interest I will be happy to post some pictures.

Waiting for your feedback, I'll tell you a little story.
Long time ago, when I used two Linhof cameras for work, I went to Milan to sell a Leica M lens and buy something interesting.
I ended up buying a Rodestock Rotelar tele for the Technika, a beautiful Pentax-A* 2.8/300mm with the grey tele extender and a huge Heliopan front filter... and a Komura 2.8/152mm for 4x5", set in a huge Copal No.3 leaft shutter in perfect conditions.
The Pentax Star is a great lens, but in a way the Komura was even more exceptional. I regret having sold it (it's the only one of that trio that I don't have anymore), cause it was a very special lens.
First, it was a great portrait lens. Second, despite the speed it covered the format with room for some movements. Third, it was one of the three 4x5" lenses ever made that had such fast max aperture (f/2.8 ).
It was more than just a fast lens, it also gave very good image quality... unlike some aerial lenses adapted for large format use, like the famous Aero Ektar 7".
Of the three high-grade super-fast large format lenses ever made, the Zeiss Planar was only a 135mm, with rather poor coverage, so the only real alternative to the Komura 152mm was the Schneider Xenotar 2.8/150mm, which is the model Komura "copied" to design their own project. You see that the alternatives were really top class, and hugely expensive, which gives credit to Komura for designing and producing such outstanding objective.
I really loved the lens, it was beautifully made and shot beautiful pictures, and after selling it I found that some knowledgeable large format photographers hold that lens in great esteem.
Btw, unfortunately I sold the Komura to a high-level Sky employee from the Uk, who asked for a huge discount, and ended up paying more or less one third of the current market value.
When I find young enthusiasts with a strong interest in optics I often get too mellow... it happened a few other times Smile
When I stopped using large format and went digital-only, I still had in mind the wonderful impression my first Komura left me, and I decided to try a couple of their small format objectives.
I found that both the old Sankyo Kohki Komura and the newer Komura Ltd. I purchased were very well made and good performers, so slowly slowly I started buying them. I don't have so many, but I take the chance when I find one in good conditions at a decent price.

cheers
Paolo

Last edited by cyberjunkie on Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another fast 4x5 lens that covers the format is the ancient Biotessar 16.5cm f/2.8

This is however a rare lens.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
Another fast 4x5 lens that covers the format is the ancient Biotessar 16.5cm f/2.8

This is however a rare lens.


I didn't know about it. If I'm not mistaken I have a Zeiss f/3.5 in my collection of old large format lenses.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think that a dedicated Sankyo Kohki Komura lens thread is an excellent idea - go ahead and set one up.
I have some images that I could contribute Smile
Tom


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I too have a large number of Komuras. None of them are the expensive ones though!

The cheap Komuras are often quite notable however.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What's the best choice? Can I continue here, or better start a new thread?
Maybe the moderator could rename this thread in something like "The Big Komura thread"... Smile


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cyberjunkie wrote:
Maybe the moderator could rename this thread in something like "The Big Komura thread"...


You can easily do that yourself. Just edit your first posting in this thread.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Camerawiki has a list of produced lenses for those who want to start a new wave of lba by collecting these: http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Sanky%C5%8D_K%C5%8Dki


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject: Sankyo Kohki Japan Komura 1:2.5 f=105mm Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:

You can easily do that yourself. Just edit your first posting in this thread.


Renamed the first post following the suggestion.
I didn't know it was possible. In other fora it's not.


I start with the lens I got today.

The lens is a very early Sankyo Kohki Japan Komura 1:2.5 f=105mm.
I thought it was in M42 UNI mount. If I'm not mistaken there were UNI mounts with set screws, and while the majority were "silver", there were also black ones.
This lens is different, it has a kind of proprietary T2 mount, with no thread.
It is simply pushed in place, and then fixed with three set screws that engage in a ridge in the barrel of the lens.
It is the first Komura lens I have seen that has this kind of mount.
It possibly predates the interchangeable UNI mount.
As per cameraeccentric catalog, there was an almost identical version of the same lens that was sold in UNI mount.
It was the second fastest tele with the "standard" UNI. The four super-fast (and today hugely expensive) short teles had TWO different types of "special" UNI mount. Because of the size of the objectives, the mount had to be larger as well.
The "special" UNI mount had two sizes, the larger for the 1.4/85mm and 2/135mm, and the smaller for the 2/105mm and 2.3/135mm.
Strangely, from what I found online it seems that the 1.8/100mm had the standard UNI mount. I guess it was due to the design, with a back element small enough to fit the normal mount.

Here are two pics from the eBay auction. Note the conditions... it was actually much worse than it looks! Smile




Here are two more pics shot with my phone immediately after I closed the lens.
It is fitted on a Pentax K-01 mirrorless.
The dust that fell inside because of my carelessness (and because of lack of light) can be seen, but it's not going to really affect the pictures.





These are the Komura lenses (sisxties, very early seventies I guess) that used the standard UNI mount:




And these are the four high-speed ones that used the two different large-size UNI mounts:



Courtesy of cameraeccentric.com


EDIT:
If you like stories, here is my encounter with the Komura 105mm.

I didn't wait a minute. As I arrived home from the post office, I just could not wait. I immediately started the cleaning process! Smile
I had this lens in my personal wanted list since quite long, so I wanted to check if it could be cleaned well enough to become a practical picture-taking tool.
I am not a great repairman, far from that. This time I encountered more difficulties than I anticipated.
Let's say that the work has been 70% successful.
When I examined the lens I found that it was in far worse conditions than the pictures would suggest.
It was so hazy that you could barely see through the optics. Very dirt and very hazy.
There are two little scratches on the front glass too. Nothing that I could ever fix, but not severe and in no way impacting the quality of the photos.
I cleaned all the surfaces but the two facing the diaphragm blades. To go any further I should have removed the diaphragm assembly, but I found no easy way to do it without the risk of dealing with scattered iris leaves.
Even after loosening the set screws of the preset ring and the diaphragm, the front lens assembly could not be unscrewed, so I removed the two front elements, and cleaned the exposed face of the glass beneath them.
At the end of the cleaning process everything is properly aligned (preset, diaphragm, focusing and mount), but the inside of the back element has a touch of fungus along the perimeter, and the element in front of the iris has two mm of haze on the extreme edge.
After closing the lens I realised that there was some dust that has found its way inside the lens during the cleaning. Next time I need a stronger light, and do it before dark!
All in all, the lens is perfectly usable, and the reference marks fall exactly on top, using a proper M42>PK adapter (the original Pentax one).


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, there isn't too much I am able to contribute, but I think it's worth noting that Komura have also specialized in the production of teleconverters.
They produced e.g. the one and only converter for the Leica-M system (incl. special finder).

I've got the LTM/M39 variant of this "Telemore" RF converter:



More information about this converter (incl. sample pictures and comparisons) can be found here:
http://forum.mflenses.com/komura-rf-m39-ltm-telemore-x2-converter-t71379.html
http://forum.mflenses.com/komura-vs-vivitar-vs-tochpribor-rf-slr-2x-teleconverter-t77703.html


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have two other Komuras with the fixed mount, 135/3.5 and 200/4.5, both M42 - the mount is only removable for manufacturing convenience, I doubt it was ever marketed as an interchangable mount.

The basic 135/2.5 is quite easy to fully disassemble, including giving access to the surfaces at the diaphragm. I am surprised the 105 has a problem here, but then I have never had one.

In all these cases a lens spanner is invaluable.

I will round up my mflenses Komura posts and add a post of links.

Currently I have, in various states of repair -

Visoflex type lenses- or rather perhaps for Komuras own mirror box, which was compatible with the Leica ones. Komura also offered these with a variety of SLR mount adapters.

500/7, 400/6.3, 300/5, 200/3.5

Unidapter - 135/2.5, 28, 35

Fixed mount - 135/3.5, 200/4.5

Auto zooms - 70-150, 90-250

Leica/M39 RF coupled - 135, 200

Quality and performance are mixed, but some are very fine, especially for their day.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
Visoflex type lenses- or rather perhaps for Komuras own mirror box, which was compatible with the Leica ones. Komura also offered these with a variety of SLR mount adapters.

500/7, 400/6.3, 300/5, 200/3.5


When I was looking for the 400/6.3 M39 RF lens for the Komura mirror box I've learned in another forum that it's unfortunately not compatible with Visoflex. There is most probably another register distance, i.e. the Komura and the Visoflex boxes have slightly different lengths.
Finally I went for the Leitz Telyt 400/5 for Visoflex instead to avoid troubles.

Do you have more informations about this issue?


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
I think it's worth noting that Komura have also specialized in the production of teleconverters.
They produced e.g. the one and only converter for the Leica-M system (incl. special finder).

I've got the LTM/M39 variant of this "Telemore" RF converter


Uncommon and interesting.
It confirms that Komura was not just releasing copycat lenses like most third party japanese manufacturers of the time.
They made lenses for different formats and pioneered the field of tele extenders.
I don't understand why the Leica versions of their optics command such higher prices.
Apart from the users of Leica film cameras (or M mount digital), there is no advantage in using adapted M39 objectives on m4/3, or APS-C and FF mirrorless cameras.

Maybe it is the case to specify, for the sake of clarity of information and to avoid disappointing mistakes, that the longest lens sold in M39 mount that was coupled with the Leica rangefinder was the 200mm f/4.5.
All the longer focals in Leica version, as already reported, had a proprietary mount for Komura's own version of the Visoflex.
I have read online that some people made the mistake to buy one of those lenses, only to find out that they were incompatible with the Leitz Viso.
The only way to use them without some kind of custom made adapter is to buy the Komura reflex box they were designed for.
However they often sell for more than the normal UNI version (which was made for most SLR cameras of the time).
And yes, it is true that the 135mm is quite common and rather cheap, but the LTM version (especially with the separate finder) usually sells for more than the SR and M42 versions (which are the most common).

Last edited by cyberjunkie on Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:39 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some of the Leica mount Komuras are not expensive. The 135 is fairly common.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My posts on Komuras -

http://forum.mflenses.com/komura-75-150-4-5-uni-auto-zoom-first-komura-zoom-t17176,highlight,%2Bkomura.html

http://forum.mflenses.com/super-komura-90-250-4-5-uni-auto-m42-mount-t15360,highlight,%2Bkomura.html

http://forum.mflenses.com/komura-28mm-f-3-5-unidapter-t68991,highlight,%2Bkomura.html

http://forum.mflenses.com/komura-200-3-5-visoflex-another-in-the-collection-t7431,highlight,%2Bkomura.html

http://forum.mflenses.com/komura-135-2-8-preset-unidapter-m42-just-lovely-t16267,highlight,%2Bkomura.html

http://forum.mflenses.com/komura-200-4-5-leica-screw-mount-on-mini-bellows-t11128,highlight,%2Bkomura.html

http://forum.mflenses.com/komura-300-5-t6093,highlight,%2Bkomura.html

Many are due for a new round of use on more modern digital cameras.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Sankyo Kohki Komura 1:7 f=500mm Reply with quote
This is a real mechanical wonder. Other lenses break in two pieces for ease of storage/transport, but this one has a beautiful, accurate build and some advanced design solutions that you won't find in other japanese long focus/tele alternatives.
I have a Soligor 800mm achromat (likely made by Tokina, and available with same design in a 600m version) that can be separated in two pieces, to be transported in its quiver, or even in three pieces, if you ever decide to fit that monster in your suitcase. Though the build level is far from the sophistication of this Komura.
The details are impressive. The focusing barrel has a bayonet connection to the diaphragm/optics barrel, which can be disengaged using an elegant solution: a sliding button on the tripod ring. The purse that houses the two parts plus the hood, the metal caps of beautiful manufacture, the flocking inside the hood... all speaks high quality. No cut corners here.
It is a true pity that this lens is more satisfying as a collector's item than a practical picture taking tool.
I have done a few tests and the results were in line with the expectations: a 4E/4G design made with the optical glass available at the time can't compare with (hugely expensive) modern solutions.
It fringes, not as horribly as other old teles. Not very easy to correct, but it can be done. The main problem is the lack of sharpness.
I tried it wide open and at f/11. In hindsight I should have tried to stop down at least to f/16. Old long focal designs, with lots of undercorrected aberrations, benefit a lot from stopping down, and such advantage overcomes the effect of diffraction.

Here are a few pics:

Sankyo Kohki Komura 1:7 f=500mm




And here is how the lens looks fitted to my Pentax K-1 full frame:



The length of the objective is not small at all, but I believe that it is a 4-elements tele design.
The picture suggests that very likely the "center" of the optic lies at less than half meter from the focal plane.
I could not find a cut-out of the design, but I believe that it is not a long focus achromatic doublet with added elements to control aberrations, unlike the Novoflex triplet, for example.
Though the accuracy of the build, with precise high-level mechanical solutions, reminds of the Novoflex follow focus and macro production.
Few third party japanese lens maker had this kind of mechanical quality.
It is quite interesting to see how certain brands have improved over time.
Tamron is a perfect example. Some early (preset) tele lenses are optically conventional, and quite sloppy mechanically.
If you take a close look at their best Adaptall-2 products, like for example the 200-500mm zoom, it's evident that the optical and mechanical quality had been hugely improved.

Last edited by cyberjunkie on Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cyberjunkie wrote:
I don't understand why the Leica versions of their optics command such higher prices.
Apart from the users of Leica film cameras (or M mount digital), there is no advantage in using adapted M39 objectives on m4/3, or APS-C and FF mirrorless cameras.

All the longer focals in Leica version, as already reported, had a proprietary mount for Komura's own version of the Visoflex.
I have read online that some people made the mistake to buy one of those lenses, only to find out that they were incompatible with the Leitz Viso.
The only way to use them without some kind of custom made adapter is to buy the Komura reflex box they were designed for.


Well, the higher price is justified because these Leica-M and LTM/M39 converters still maintain the RF coupling and the special finder with adjustable field of view and distance for lenses up to 135mm is also included.

There is still the advantage that generally RF lenses are smaller with less weight. That's particularly nice when hiking. A normal SLR lens barely fits in my jeans pocket but lenses like e.g. my tiny Voigtlaender 12, 15, 21, 25 and 40 mm ones are easily pocketable. Besides that you are right.

Thanks for the confirmation that Visoflex and Komura is NOT compatible.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="tb_a"]
cyberjunkie wrote:

Thanks for the confirmation that Visoflex and Komura is NOT compatible.


It is a real pity, cause some Visoflex optics are still very usable, even for those who don't own a mirrorless camera..
There are chinese adapters, if I remember correctly, but I don't know much about them.
I use a Leitax'ed original Leitz adapter (Viso>R, 14167), with either Viso objectives (via OUBIO ring), or with removable Viso lens heads.
I have two of the latter kind, a Summicron Canada 2/90mm and an Elmarit Canada 2.8/135mm (with spectacles). If you unscrew the lens head from the original barrel, and use a Viso focusing barrel (they share the same one), both of them can be used on the Leitax'ed 14167 adapter, and work exceptionally well on my K-1.
I don't know how to use similar long-register Komura lenses in such way.
Anybody out there found out about a possible solution?


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cyberjunkie wrote:
It is a real pity, cause some Visoflex optics are still very usable, even for those who don't own a mirrorless camera..
There are chinese adapters, if I remember correctly, but I don't know much about them.
I use a Leitax'ed original Leitz adapter (Viso>R, 14167), with either Viso objectives (via OUBIO ring), or with removable Viso lens heads.
I have two of the latter kind, a Summicron Canada 2/90mm and an Elmarit Canada 2.8/135mm (with spectacles). If you unscrew the lens head from the original barrel, and use a Viso focusing barrel (they share the same one), both of them can be used on the Leitax'ed 14167 adapter, and work exceptionally well on my K-1.
I don't know how to use similar long-register Komura lenses in such way.
Anybody out there found out about a possible solution?


Whom do you tell that. Wink

I'm a big fan of the Visoflex system and use my 90 and 135mm lens heads almosts exclusively on the 16464K focusing helicoid. I've got also the 200, 280 and 400 mm Telyts for Visoflex.
Still looking for a 65mm macro Elmar at a reasonable price.
The biggest advantage is that Visoflex is adaptable to ALL of my digital cameras and of course Leitz/Leica lenses are not bad at all.

If one could find out the correct register distance or the exact length of the Komura mirror box for the long register M39 Komura lenses this might help to check for adapter solutions.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sankyo Kohki Komura 135/3.5 LTM.
Not a pre-set but simply a manual aperture in spite of what looks like two rings on the front - they are only one.
Tom



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
Sankyo Kohki Komura 135/3.5 LTM.
Not a pre-set but simply a manual aperture in spite of what looks like two rings on the front - they are only one.


Here is the same lens with preset ring, in UNI Minolta version.
Sorry for the old blurry pictures, I don't have the lens with me, only the original auction pictures, saved in my HD
I like the yellow mt. scale Smile






Here is yet another version of the Komura f/3.5 135mm, in UNI M42 mount (black with set screws), or maybe in the same kind of mount of the 105mm (proprietary T2 with no thread, fixed with three set screws that get into a ridge in the lens barrel).
I don't have the lens with me. I guess the latter hypothesis is the more likely.



PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I too am a lover of Komura lenses! This is a great idea for a post on here.

Komura lenses are definitely unique. I think they are actually quite well made lenses, although some are not as good as others. One of my favorites is the 100mm F1.8, the bokeh is great. I also quite like the 80mm F1.8. I'd love to get my hands on a 85mm F1.4, but they are sooo expensive!

Here are my posts on a few Komura's that I have:
http://forum.mflenses.com/sankyo-kohki-komura-100mm-f1-8-t78558.html
and
http://forum.mflenses.com/bronica-komura-100mm-f2-8-medium-format-t79054.html


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
DonN wrote:
One of my favorites is the 100mm F1.8, the bokeh is great. I also quite like the 80mm F1.8. I'd love to get my hands on a 85mm F1.4, but they are sooo expensive!



I envy your 80mm and 85mm Smile

It seems that the old Sankyo Kohki Komura get more attention than the newer Komura Ltd.
I don't know if the late lenses were proportionally inferior. I did not use the two examples I own because both need some work.

Here is a KMC Komuranon f2.5 28mm in PK mount






And here a KMC Komuranon f2.5 135mm in M42 mount



This is a picture of a Nikon version I found online, as a reference to try to find a similar rubber material.
The barrel looks quite different. Both are f/2.5, I have no idea if the difference is just aesthetic.




The 135mm has to be restored, cause it is missing both the focusing and diaphragm rubber rings.
The 28mm has a very tall diaphragm lever guard. I am not sure if it protrudes too much or is just fine, but I want to test it on another camera, not the K-1.
A similar problem affects many Kino-made lenses in PK mount. I had to file down the part in a few Vivitar and Kiron objectives.
The pentaxians of this forum already know that in modern Pentax cameras there are two power contacts inside the mount, exactly were the diaphragm lever guard protrudes inside the mirror box. Some people damaged the contacts, so better check before...

Lacking any test, I can report only about the build.
The 135mm did not have strong rubber rings, that is for sure! Smile Mechanically it seems rather well made.
The 28mm is heavy, has a nice push-on hood, and has a 7E/7G design. Not a cheap 28mm, compared to others of the same vintage.


EDIT:
Found a picture of the nice case of my 2.5/135mm Komuranon.
Mine is in the same case, with the same hood, etc... the only thing that is missing is some rubber on the rings Smile



Last edited by cyberjunkie on Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
cyberjunkie wrote:
DonN wrote:
One of my favorites is the 100mm F1.8, the bokeh is great. I also quite like the 80mm F1.8. I'd love to get my hands on a 85mm F1.4, but they are sooo expensive!



I envy your 80mm and 85mm Smile

It seems that the old Sankyo Kohki Komura get more attention than the newer Komura Ltd.
I don't know if the late lenses were proportionally inferior. I did not use the two examples I own because both need some work.



I tried a couple of the later zooms and was struck by their inferior build quality compared to the earlier lenses.
Optically they were also quite ordinary.
The best zoom that I have from Komura is their Super-Komura Uni Auto f4.5 75-150.
It really is excellent with very warm rendition
Tom


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Now here is a puzzle.
This is listed as Komura 105mm f3.5 Sankyo Koki Lens M42 Mount w/ view-finder
First question would be - were there any M42 rangefinder cameras?
Secondly, this lens has an mfd of 3.5 feet.
Thirdly, there are no 105mm f3.5 lenses listed at all in the Camera Eccentric pages for Komura:
See: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/komura_1.html
and the only one with mfd of 3.5 feet is a 105/2.5 - designed for SLR

I suspect that the lens is LTM and not M42, but it still does not appear anywhere in that catalogue.

So, does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this lens.
Your responses are appreciated.
Tom
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Last edited by Oldhand on Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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