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Takumar Field Guide
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:36 pm    Post subject: Takumar Field Guide Reply with quote
https://takumarguide.weebly.com/

Like 1 Like 1 Thank you! Whoo Turtle


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Takumar Field Guide Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
https://takumarguide.weebly.com/

Like 1 Like 1 Thank you! Whoo Turtle


Anybody has the first edition?
I'm curious what the author says about the Auto-Takumar 55mm f/2. The lens looks too much like the Tomioka made Yashinon 5cm f/2 to be a coincidence.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:04 am    Post subject: Re: Takumar Field Guide Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
https://takumarguide.weebly.com/

Like 1 Like 1 Thank you! Whoo Turtle


Anybody has the first edition?
I'm curious what the author says about the Auto-Takumar 55mm f/2. The lens looks too much like the Tomioka made Yashinon 5cm f/2 to be a coincidence.


I have it! That's where all this info comes from including the answer to your question.

http://forum.mflenses.com/29-versions-of-the-55mm-asahi-takumar-m42-screw-mount-lenses-t81698,start,43.html


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Check this link (and translate).

http://pakira3.sakura.ne.jp/wp/?p=4380

Also When disassembled, both lenses are too similar to be just coincidence. I think it is very unlikely that all parts of both lenses are manufactured in separate factories. It would be strange and very uneconomical. Maybe Pentax used a Tomioka 'shell' and put in its own optics.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Much more likely Tomioka/Yashica took apart a Takumar and copied it. The parts are not the same. Too many differences to be from the same product line.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
Check this link (and translate).

http://pakira3.sakura.ne.jp/wp/?p=4380

Also When disassembled, both lenses are too similar to be just coincidence. I think it is very unlikely that all parts of both lenses are manufactured in separate factories. It would be strange and very uneconomical. Maybe Pentax used a Tomioka 'shell' and put in its own optics.


Illustrates for me they are definitely not the same.

Anybody know Yashinon year of manufacture? Auto-Takumar was 1959-1962.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
Much more likely Tomioka/Yashica took apart a Takumar and copied it. The parts are not the same. Too many differences to be from the same product line.


I have a very hard time believing that. The similarity is not only in the parts, but also in the finish. To me It doesn't make sense that Tomioka would shamelessly copy parts to such a similar level of detail. It would be very difficult as well, without knowing the exact manufacturing process. I think the same machines made both lenses.

My theory is, that for some reason (maybe supply problems), Pentax was temporarily not able to manufacture it's own lenses and had it done. Tomioka would be an excellent partner for that since they had such high standards of manufacturing.

But I guess we will never find out the real answer. Untill then, everybody is entitled to their own opinion 😉.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
caspert79 wrote:
Check this link (and translate).

http://pakira3.sakura.ne.jp/wp/?p=4380

Also When disassembled, both lenses are too similar to be just coincidence. I think it is very unlikely that all parts of both lenses are manufactured in separate factories. It would be strange and very uneconomical. Maybe Pentax used a Tomioka 'shell' and put in its own optics.


Illustrates for me they are definitely not the same.

Anybody know Yashinon year of manufacture? Auto-Takumar was 1959-1962.


I guess it started with the Yashica Penta J, so that would be 1961.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
D1N0 wrote:
Much more likely Tomioka/Yashica took apart a Takumar and copied it. The parts are not the same. Too many differences to be from the same product line.


I have a very hard time believing that. The similarity is not only in the parts, but also in the finish. To me It doesn't make sense that Tomioka would shamelessly copy parts to such a similar level of detail. It would be very difficult as well, without knowing the exact manufacturing process. I think the same machines made both lenses.

My theory is, that for some reason (maybe supply problems), Pentax was temporarily not able to manufacture it's own lenses and had it done. Tomioka would be an excellent partner for that since they had such high standards of manufacturing.

But I guess we will never find out the real answer. Untill then, everybody is entitled to their own opinion 😉.


Or their pet theory :p


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
caspert79 wrote:
D1N0 wrote:
Much more likely Tomioka/Yashica took apart a Takumar and copied it. The parts are not the same. Too many differences to be from the same product line.


I have a very hard time believing that. The similarity is not only in the parts, but also in the finish. To me It doesn't make sense that Tomioka would shamelessly copy parts to such a similar level of detail. It would be very difficult as well, without knowing the exact manufacturing process. I think the same machines made both lenses.

My theory is, that for some reason (maybe supply problems), Pentax was temporarily not able to manufacture it's own lenses and had it done. Tomioka would be an excellent partner for that since they had such high standards of manufacturing.

But I guess we will never find out the real answer. Untill then, everybody is entitled to their own opinion 😉.


Or their pet theory :p


Seems unlikely Asahi would allow use of Tomioka/Yashinon named product...besides, the Yashinon mount is entirely diferent from Pentax Screwmount.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
D1N0 wrote:
caspert79 wrote:
D1N0 wrote:
Much more likely Tomioka/Yashica took apart a Takumar and copied it. The parts are not the same. Too many differences to be from the same product line.


I have a very hard time believing that. The similarity is not only in the parts, but also in the finish. To me It doesn't make sense that Tomioka would shamelessly copy parts to such a similar level of detail. It would be very difficult as well, without knowing the exact manufacturing process. I think the same machines made both lenses.

My theory is, that for some reason (maybe supply problems), Pentax was temporarily not able to manufacture it's own lenses and had it done. Tomioka would be an excellent partner for that since they had such high standards of manufacturing.

But I guess we will never find out the real answer. Untill then, everybody is entitled to their own opinion 😉.


Or their pet theory :p


Seems unlikely Asahi would allow use of Tomioka/Yashinon named product...besides, the Yashinon mount is entirely diferent from Pentax Screwmount.


If Pentax had problems with their own production, Pentax wouldn't have much choice. And a different mount is not a very complicated part of the production process.
It's clear that both lenses are not exactly the same, they're just strikingly similar in many ways.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
... And a different mount is not a very complicated part of the production process. ...


You're kidding, right?


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:


If Pentax had problems with their own production, Pentax wouldn't have much choice. And a different mount is not a very complicated part of the production process.
It's clear that both lenses are not exactly the same, they're just strikingly similar in many ways.


If you need assumptions that cannot be proven to build your case, then you are probably wrong. If the lenses would be made in the same factory, they would not have gone through the trouble of designing almost every part just a little bit differently (which is factual as can be seen in the images in the link you posted) and Japanese are anything but wasteful, unless you are copying a competitors product. The Yashinon came three years later than the first lens by Asahi Optical Company built with a semi-automatic diaphragm. (Auto-Tak 55/1.Cool and two years after the Auto-Tak 55/2. Also did Asahi use the semi-automatic diaphragm in more than just one lens. 55/1.8/2/2.2 35/3.5 35/2.3 105/2.8 and 135/3.5. The other two lenses that could be bought from Yashica didn't have one. (They are in this manual: https://www.cameramanuals.org/yashica_pdf/yashica_penta_j.pdf) so it was certainly not something they developed before AOC did. Although the Germans probably came up with first.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Auto-Yashinon lenses were manufactured by Asahi Optical Company factory makes more sense?


PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="caspert79"]
D1N0 wrote:


My theory is, that for some reason (maybe supply problems), Pentax was temporarily not able to manufacture it's own lenses and had it done. Tomioka would be an excellent partner for that since they had such high standards of manufacturing.



Just as an aside, during the period of the large import/export middlemen certainly, say the 1960s/70s, the Japanese lens industry would act as one to fulfil large orders from abroad. So you would have companies making other companies lens designs. This may seem improbable now, but it has certainly occurred in other countries, in the UK for example, but for very different reasons. In the UK it was in order to lessen the impact of bomb damage during WWII.

I've read that Asahi's lenses were outsourced from time to time during the 1960s, but for the life of me, I can't remember where I read this. So perhaps take it as 'unproven'.

I wish I knew more about this, as I've often wondered what parts were outsourced. The glass?, the bodies?, both?


PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Sciolist"]
caspert79 wrote:
D1N0 wrote:


My theory is, that for some reason (maybe supply problems), Pentax was temporarily not able to manufacture it's own lenses and had it done. Tomioka would be an excellent partner for that since they had such high standards of manufacturing.



Just as an aside, during the period of the large import/export middlemen certainly, say the 1960s/70s, the Japanese lens industry would act as one to fulfil large orders from abroad. So you would have companies making other companies lens designs. This may seem improbable now, but it has certainly occurred in other countries, in the UK for example, but for very different reasons. In the UK it was in order to lessen the impact of bomb damage during WWII.

I've read that Asahi's lenses were outsourced from time to time during the 1960s, but for the life of me, I can't remember where I read this. So perhaps take it as 'unproven'.

I wish I knew more about this, as I've often wondered what parts were outsourced. The glass?, the bodies?, both?


It is (was?) common practice in Japan to use al kinds of small companies to produce parts for you product. Pentax ( Asahi Kogaku Goshi Kaisha>Asahi Optical company>Pentax ) started out as a maker of spectacle lenses. Camera's came much later. It is therefore likely they had their own optical lens foundry. (Now part of Hoya). Most other parts must have come from a myriad of small specialized operators, which may also have been making parts for other lens makers (To specification).
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