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29 Versions of the 55mm Asahi Takumar M42 Screw Mount Lenses
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
caspert79 wrote:





I wonder if this lens is optically really the same as the Super-Takumar 55/2. The Auto-Takumar is made by Tomioka I believe, so you would expect some differences?


It is not. It's just that the Tomioka made Yashinon 50mm F2 that looks like the twin of the auto-takumar 55/2. They are different lenses. Pentax has always made it's own lenses until the late eighties early when they started to use Tamron for some zooms and they had a Cosina Macro (100/3.5)


Not the same optically -- same 6/5 formula, different design parameters, given the different front element curvatures.

Asahi Optical Company made the Auto-Takumar. Perhaps they shared the design with Tomioka...edit: the Yashinon has an entirely different aperture coupling mechanism...


PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
I 'accidentally' won a SMC Pentax 55mm 1.8 in an auction. That is really the last one on the list. Just not called Takumar any more because it has a K-mount. It was produced from 75 to 77. It was succeeded by a new design in the Pentax-m 50mm 1.7, which is still in use in the plastic fantastic SMC Pentax DA 50mm 1.8.


Not the last on a list of M42 lenses. Smile

The optical formula is still 6/5 but design parameters may be different. Any way you can clock the curvature of the front element?


PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
D1N0 wrote:
I 'accidentally' won a SMC Pentax 55mm 1.8 in an auction. That is really the last one on the list. Just not called Takumar any more because it has a K-mount. It was produced from 75 to 77. It was succeeded by a new design in the Pentax-m 50mm 1.7, which is still in use in the plastic fantastic SMC Pentax DA 50mm 1.8.


Not the last on a list of M42 lenses. Smile

The optical formula is still 6/5 but design parameters may be different. Any way you can clock the curvature of the front element?


It has to arrive first Wink I don't have a measure thingy. The SMC K-mount series were a bit wider (52mm filter thread instead of 49mm for most primes (from 24 to 150mm)) but that could just be the lens body.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Comparing the Auto-Takumar 1:2 f=55 and Auto-Takumar 1:2/55, with the Auto-Takumar 1:2.2/55

Both lenses have identical front and rear element curvatures.

Both lenses are the same length 33mm.

Both weigh 175 g

However, unlike the SuperTakumar 1:2/55 which, except for a max-aperture-limiting ring inside, is identical to the Super-Takumar 1:1.8/55, Isee no such ring in the Auto-Takumar 1:2.2/55.

Gerjan shows differing lens diagrams, and, gives different weights and lengths, however in another place says the lenses are identical, with f/2.2 crippled he doesn't say how.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just discovered there is a third variation of the 2.2 -- a second chrome 2.2 with a smaller ".2" (supposedly to save room) on dof scale -- mine has both 2s same size.

#1


#2


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Comparing the Auto-Takumar 1:2 f=55 and Auto-Takumar 1:2/55, with the Auto-Takumar 1:2.2/55

Both lenses have identical front and rear element curvatures.

Both lenses are the same length 33mm.

Both weigh 175 g

However, unlike the SuperTakumar 1:2/55 which, except for a max-aperture-limiting ring inside, is identical to the Super-Takumar 1:1.8/55, Isee no such ring in the Auto-Takumar 1:2.2/55.

Gerjan shows differing lens diagrams, and, gives different weights and lengths, however in another place says the lenses are identical, with f/2.2 crippled he doesn't say how.


That's interesting. I wonder if it just has thicker front(beauty) and rear(fixing) rings only, rather than a fixed stop at the diaphragm.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sciolist wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Comparing the Auto-Takumar 1:2 f=55 and Auto-Takumar 1:2/55, with the Auto-Takumar 1:2.2/55

Both lenses have identical front and rear element curvatures.

Both lenses are the same length 33mm.

Both weigh 175 g

However, unlike the SuperTakumar 1:2/55 which, except for a max-aperture-limiting ring inside, is identical to the Super-Takumar 1:1.8/55, Isee no such ring in the Auto-Takumar 1:2.2/55.

Gerjan shows differing lens diagrams, and, gives different weights and lengths, however in another place says the lenses are identical, with f/2.2 crippled he doesn't say how.


That's interesting. I wonder if it just has thicker front(beauty) and rear(fixing) rings only, rather than a fixed stop at the diaphragm.


They are identical except the lettering...unless you are seeing something I'm not in the photos above.

Both 2s and the chrome 2.2 have identical physical clear aperture measurements, taken from the front, of 25mm. And all diaphragms close down to the same size...
_________________


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Sciolist wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Comparing the Auto-Takumar 1:2 f=55 and Auto-Takumar 1:2/55, with the Auto-Takumar 1:2.2/55

Both lenses have identical front and rear element curvatures.

Both lenses are the same length 33mm.

Both weigh 175 g

However, unlike the SuperTakumar 1:2/55 which, except for a max-aperture-limiting ring inside, is identical to the Super-Takumar 1:1.8/55, Isee no such ring in the Auto-Takumar 1:2.2/55.

Gerjan shows differing lens diagrams, and, gives different weights and lengths, however in another place says the lenses are identical, with f/2.2 crippled he doesn't say how.


That's interesting. I wonder if it just has thicker front(beauty) and rear(fixing) rings only, rather than a fixed stop at the diaphragm.


They are identical except the lettering...unless you are seeing something I'm not in the photos above.

Both 2s and the chrome 2.2 have identical physical clear aperture measurements, taken from the front, of 25mm. And all diaphragms close down to the same size...
_________________


Maybe they are all 2.2 then (because a 2 aperture should be 27.5mm). Maybe compare it with a Super-Takumar F2?


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="visualopsins"]
visualopsins wrote:


They are identical except the lettering...unless you are seeing something I'm not in the photos above.

Both 2s and the chrome 2.2 have identical physical clear aperture measurements, taken from the front, of 25mm. And all diaphragms close down to the same size...
_________________


I've confused myself somewhere. I was sure you'd said the 2.2 you were referring to had a smaller lettering for the ".2". So I wasn't looking at the picture you put up. Now I can't see where you ever said that.

As you were...


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Sciolist"]
visualopsins wrote:
visualopsins wrote:


They are identical except the lettering...unless you are seeing something I'm not in the photos above.

Both 2s and the chrome 2.2 have identical physical clear aperture measurements, taken from the front, of 25mm. And all diaphragms close down to the same size...
_________________


I've confused myself somewhere. I was sure you'd said the 2.2 you were referring to had a smaller lettering for the ".2". So I wasn't looking at the picture you put up. Now I can't see where you ever said that.

As you were...


Yes, there is a (third) 2.2 with smaller .2, as described here, with photos: https://takumarguide.weebly.com/takumarology.html in the section near the bottom "Odd-balls (rejected ideas)" -- my 2.2 has large .2 and ir mark...


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
Maybe compare it with a Super-Takumar F2?


D1N0 wrote:
Maybe they are all 2.2 then (because a 2 aperture should be 27.5mm). Maybe compare it with a Super-Takumar F2?


Checked again. Both 2s and 2.2 are 25mm. The Super-Takumar and Super-Multi-Coated Takumar 1:2/55s are 27mm (maybe 27.5, hard to see). I'm measuring with a ruler, from the front, holding lens to light source to see clear aperture...


PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ive been looking for the first 55/1.8 for a long while and haven't ever seen one for sale till today, searches usually turn into Auto-Takumar or Super Takumars, well not this time...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/373746034880
But the price!!!
Is this a typical price?


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
Ive been looking for the first 55/1.8 for a long while and haven't ever seen one for sale till today, searches usually turn into Auto-Takumar or Super Takumars, well not this time...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/373746034880
But the price!!!
Is this a typical price?


Don't know about that but there were only 500 to a 1000 ever made so it is pretty rare. Collectability value. Optically the Auto-takumar 55m 1.8 (Zebra version) will likely be very similar sharing the same coatings.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
Ive been looking for the first 55/1.8 for a long while and haven't ever seen one for sale till today, searches usually turn into Auto-Takumar or Super Takumars, well not this time...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/373746034880
But the price!!!
Is this a typical price?


Based on serial numbers, it was estimated that only between 483 and 966 of these lenses were made, and who knows how many survivors there are today. They belonged on the rare Pentax S, of which only about 4000 copies were made and which was produced for only a year or a year and a half. The lens is probably so rare because most people who would have bought a lens this fast (and expensive) also would have bought the more expensive camera, the Pentax K, with which the S overlapped (I believe) and which had 1/1000 max shutter speed instead of the S's 1/500 and which had the first and much more common 55/1.8 Auto-Takumar (zebra version) that accompanied it. The result is that this lens is very rare.

It was the paragon of all Pentax 55/1.8 to follow and one might argue that it holds a special place for being the fastest 35mm SLR lens when it came out (I believe). Therefore, it is a collector's item analogue to a 1950s Ferrari or Gullwing Mercedes 300 SL and worth whatever a collector is willing to pay for it. vOv

Edit: I have one of them, and I might be willing to part with the entire first series of Pentax m42 mount lenses (58/2, 58/2.4, a blue Mauritius [all 58/2.4 with serial 154xxx are factory fakes or errors and truly 55/2.2], the 55/2.2, and the 55/1.8 )


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: 29 Versions of the 55mm Asahi Takumar M42 Screw Mount Le Reply with quote
I believe there is yet another version and claim that every 58mm/2.4 lens with serial number 154xxx is a factory fake or error and truly a 55/2.2. That is at least true for the one I own and two more copies that I have images of.


visualopsins wrote:
29 Versions of the 55mm Asahi Takumar M42 Screw Mount Lenses

Beg, End, Lens, f/#, elements/groups, notes

5/1957, 5/1959, Takumar, 2.2, 5/5, distance in meters
5/1957, 5/1959, Takumar, 2.2, 5/5, distance in feet
5/1957, 5/1959, Takumar, 2.2, 5/5, distance in meters and feet

4/1958, 5/1959, Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(1)

5/1958, 5/1959, Auto-Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(1) , Zebra
5/1958, 5/1959, Auto-Takumar, 1.9, 6/5(1) , Zebra, f/1.8 lens marked 1.9 for US sale with Sears Tower 29 brand cameras made by Asahi Pentax

1959, 1961, Auto-Takumar, 2, 6/5(2), white distance engravings, "1:2 f = 55mm" on name ring
1961, 1962, Auto-Takumar, 2, 6/5(2), yellow distance engravings, "1:2 / 55mm" on name ring

1960, 1962, Auto-Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2) , ccw rotating aperture ring, reverse direction A/M switch, 1/2 aperture stop between f/11 and f/16

1961, 1962, Auto-Takumar, 2.2, 6/5(1), white distance engravings, chrome aperture ring and dof scale
1962, 1963, Auto-Takumar, 2.2, 6/5(1), yellow distance engravings, black aperture ring

1962, 1963, Super-Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), model I, 1/2 aperture stop between f/11 and f/16
1963, 1964, Super-Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), model I, no 1/2 aperture stop between f/11 and f/16
1964, 1965, Super-Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), model I, no 1/2 aperture stop between f/11 and f/16, 34520 on A/M switch

1962, 1963, Super-Takumar, 2, 6/5(1), Model I, ccw rotating aperture ring with unmarked detent past 2, reverse direction A/M switch
1963, 1965, Super-Takumar, 2, 6/5(1), Model I, cw rotating aperture ring doesn't move past 2, cw A/M

1965, 1966, Super-Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), model II, A/M switch labels, blue coatings
1966, 1971, Super-Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), model II, Auto/Man switch labels, product 37100, purple coatings
1971, 1971, Super-Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), model II, Auto/Man switch labels, product 37101
1971, 1971, Super-Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), model II, Auto/Man switch labels, product 37101, with aperture coupling

1965, 1966, Super-Takumar, 2, 6/5(1), Model II, A/M switch labels
1966, 1967, Super-Takumar, 2, 6/5(1), Model II, Auto/Man switch labels, product 37102
1967, 1971, Super-Takumar, 2, 6/5(1), Model II, Auto/Man switch labels, product 37103
1971, 1974, Super-Takumar, 2, 6/5(1), Model II, Auto/Man switch labels, product 37107

1971, 1971, Super-Multi-Coated Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), without aperture coupling, product 37101 is same on Super 55/1.8 Model II variation 3
1971, 1972, Super-Multi-Coated Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), with aperture coupling, product 37104
1972, 1972, Super-Multi-Coated Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), with aperture coupling, product 37106

1972, 1975, SMC Takumar, 1.8, 6/5(2), product 37108

1974, 1977 SMC Takumar, 2, 6/5(2), product 37109

notes:

dates for individual lenses in a group are my guesses based on date range in reference for the entire group and other clues.
6/5(1) -- first 6/5 design
6/5(2) -- second 6/5 design


reference:

The Ultimate Asahi Pentax Screw Mount Guide 1952-1977, Gerjan van Oosten, Uitgeverij Jansz, Zeist, 1999, ISBN 90-76537-02-X


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: 29 Versions of the 55mm Asahi Takumar M42 Screw Mount Le Reply with quote
Bladejunkie wrote:
I believe there is yet another version and claim that every 58mm/2.4 lens with serial number 154xxx is a factory fake or error and truly a 55/2.2. That is at least true for the one I own and two more copies that I have images of.


Probably not.

Around 1960, "pot melting" of glasses - especially higfh refractive glass - still was common: The properties of different "pots" were slightly different, and thus the computation of a certain lens (including refractive index and radii) had to be adopted to the corresponding "pot" of glass. Slight deviations from the nominal focal length were common. Of course the slightly differing lens sets were mounted in the same barrel.

If you read the Nikkor Tale on the Nikkor 1.4/50mm, you'll find addditional information on that:
https://org.imaging.nikon.com/history/story/0044/index.htm

S


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: 29 Versions of the 55mm Asahi Takumar M42 Screw Mount Le Reply with quote
...

Last edited by Blazer0ne on Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: 29 Versions of the 55mm Asahi Takumar M42 Screw Mount Le Reply with quote
Blazer0ne wrote:
Bladejunkie wrote:
I believe there is yet another version and claim that every 58mm/2.4 lens with serial number 154xxx is a factory fake or error and truly a 55/2.2. That is at least true for the one I own and two more copies that I have images


I have that lens and wrote about what I found during a dismantling. We came to the same conclusion it being not a heliar, though it was probably more about marketing and production line switchover as opposed to errors.


http://forum.mflenses.com/asahi-opt-co-japan-takumar-12-4-f58mm-m42-t81351,highlight,%2Btakumar+%2B2+%2B2.html


https://takumarguide.weebly.com/ (see "Assembling Takumars")


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 29 Versions of the 55mm Asahi Takumar M42 Screw Mount Le Reply with quote
Unless you have access to all three lenses to substantiate your claim, I beg to differ. I have a copy of all three and the 154xxx 58mm/2.4 is equal in construction, rendering, and field of view to the 55/2.2 but not the true 58/2.4. In addition, I have disassembled the rear group of the lens, and it is identical to the 55mm/2.2.

Since all three lenses are mounted in identical barrels, one might suspect that mine is a "frankenlens," assembled in a cleaning-out-the-fridge repair, but this is contradicted by the fact that all 154xxx 58mm/2.4 look like mine, that is, like the 55mm/2.2.

stevemark wrote:
Bladejunkie wrote:
I believe there is yet another version and claim that every 58mm/2.4 lens with serial number 154xxx is a factory fake or error and truly a 55/2.2. That is at least true for the one I own and two more copies that I have images of.


Probably not.

Around 1960, "pot melting" of glasses - especially higfh refractive glass - still was common: The properties of different "pots" were slightly different, and thus the computation of a certain lens (including refractive index and radii) had to be adopted to the corresponding "pot" of glass. Slight deviations from the nominal focal length were common. Of course the slightly differing lens sets were mounted in the same barrel.

If you read the Nikkor Tale on the Nikkor 1.4/50mm, you'll find addditional information on that:
https://org.imaging.nikon.com/history/story/0044/index.htm

S


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 29 Versions of the 55mm Asahi Takumar M42 Screw Mount Le Reply with quote
Blazer0ne wrote:
Bladejunkie wrote:
I believe there is yet another version and claim that every 58mm/2.4 lens with serial number 154xxx is a factory fake or error and truly a 55/2.2. That is at least true for the one I own and two more copies that I have images


I have that lens and wrote about what I found during a dismantling. We came to the same conclusion it being not a heliar, though it was probably more about marketing and production line switchover as opposed to errors.


http://forum.mflenses.com/asahi-opt-co-japan-takumar-12-4-f58mm-m42-t81351,highlight,%2Btakumar+%2B2+%2B2.html


Exactly, I also once wrote a post about mine after finding that the rendering and field of view of my 55/2.2 and 58/2.4 were exactly the same in a frame shot from tripod. Whereas you were not able to get apart the rear group, I only disassembled the rear group and found the two to be identical.

The post is available here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/351998-fake-m42-takumar-58mm-2-4-anyone-have-one-counter-check.html


PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
...

Last edited by Blazer0ne on Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the info guys.Just my luck that one of the few lenses I really want is a unicorn.


PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
May I recommend https://takumarguide.weebly.com/takumarology.html

and https://takumarguide.weebly.com/1--24-f58.html


Also the list has increased to "33 Versions..."

I own highlighted lenses

Info on the four different optical designs and computations:


I agree with D1N0 the Zebra Auto-Taks probably have same optics as original Takumar.


PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The lens we own is certainly from the last batch, as mentioned under notes #3 on https://takumarguide.weebly.com/1--24-f58.html. However, the lenses do not only possess the body of one and the markings of the other lens. The lens is mislabeled, as it is optically the 55/2.2 but bears somewhat botched markings of the 58/2.4. It's actually a blend of markings. There is a number of tell tale signs that the lens is not the 58/2.4, as labeled, but the 55/2.2: the deep recess of the front group into the lens body, that the 2.4 aperture mark is in the wrong location (it is where the 2.2 goes), the wrong minimum focus distance for the 58/2.4 (the MFD labeled is that of the 55/2.2), and the 2/2 rear group as well as the concavity of the last element (the rear group of the 58/2.4 is glued and its last element is convex). The other gentleman looked at the front group and also found further evidence consistent with the 55/2.2.

The images in the two posts the other poster and I linked show the evidence.

visualopsins wrote:
May I recommend https://takumarguide.weebly.com/takumarology.html

and https://takumarguide.weebly.com/1--24-f58.html


Also the list has increased to "33 Versions..."

I own highlighted lenses

Info on the four different optical designs and computations:


I agree with D1N0 the Zebra Auto-Taks probably have same optics as original Takumar.


    PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    The Auto-Takumar 1:1.8 f=55mm (Zebra, 46mm filters) has the same lens 6/5(1) formula calculation as the Auto-Takumar 1:1.8 f=55mm (49mm filters) evidenced by identical front element curvature of 12 diopters.
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