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Sun Wide Zoom Macro 24-40mm f3.5 and YS mounts in general
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Sun Wide Zoom Macro 24-40mm f3.5 and YS mounts in general Reply with quote
I've been fooled and disappointed in the past with Sun lenses bought on eBay . . . a couple of them. You research the lens on the internet and there are references stating interchangeable mounts (YS or T2) for the lens are routine. You buy. When the lens arrives it has a useless (to me) fixed mount.

Regarding the subject lens, it's the same thing all over again, and I'm having trouble knowing what's going on. It's frustrating dealing with these old Sun MF lens mounts. Apparently, back in the day, Sun would make the same lens two ways regarding mount: Some with fixed mounts and others of the very same lens (i.e., same nominal specifications) with removable mount.

So here is my question about the Sun 24-40mm f3.5:

Does anyone own (or have you ever physically seen) one of these lenses that has a FIXED mount?? Question

I already know this lens exists with interchangeable mount. But I don't know if fixed mount examples even exist. If they do, the lens is much more difficult to buy. Sad

Last edited by guardian on Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Weeelll..........., I don't have one, but this one looks like it might be a fixed mount:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CANON-FD-FIT-SUN-1-3-5-F-24-40MM-MACRO-WIDE-ANGLE-ZOOM-LENS-for-A-T-range-/180772565295?pt=UK_Lenses_Filters_Lenses&hash=item2a16e2712f



PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
Weeelll..........., I don't have one, but this one looks like it might be a fixed mount:



To be honest, that one looks to me like an interchangeable mount. Which is not to say you're wrong. Not at all.

It's just that looks can be deceiving and, as I wrote in the OP, I've been fooled in the past.

That's why I need input from somebody who might actually have held in hand one of these with a fixed mount. That's the only way to know for certain such a thing exists.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
Weeelll..........., I don't have one, but this one looks like it might be a fixed mount:



To be honest, that one looks to me like an interchangeable mount. Which is not to say you're wrong. Not at all.

It's just that looks can be deceiving and, as I wrote in the OP, I've been fooled in the past.

That's why I need input from somebody who might actually have held in hand one of these with a fixed mount. That's the only way to know for certain such a thing exists.


That lens is for a Canon FD mount.
The back collar that looks like it would be part of an interchangeable mount is actually the Canon FD breech mount collar.
The red dot lines up with the 12 o'clock position on the camera body and rotates to the right to secure the lens to the body.
If you want one for canon FD then this is it.
Cheers
OH


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Most of this lens i have seen is fixed mount. The Hoya HMC 3.5/25-42 is the same lens(with different coating?) with fixed mount.

If you are not sure, look for a mount that you can use. They are not expensive in the states.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
guardian wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
Weeelll..........., I don't have one, but this one looks like it might be a fixed mount:



To be honest, that one looks to me like an interchangeable mount. Which is not to say you're wrong. Not at all.

It's just that looks can be deceiving and, as I wrote in the OP, I've been fooled in the past.

That's why I need input from somebody who might actually have held in hand one of these with a fixed mount. That's the only way to know for certain such a thing exists.


That lens is for a Canon FD mount.
The back collar that looks like it would be part of an interchangeable mount is actually the Canon FD breech mount collar.
The red dot lines up with the 12 o'clock position on the camera body and rotates to the right to secure the lens to the body.
If you want one for canon FD then this is it.
Cheers
OH


OK. Fair enough. Course Canon FD is of no help to me at all. However, you seem to have a better handle on this mount thing than I do. So I'd be curious to learn if you, or anyone else, thinks the below example of the subject lens has an interchangeable mount . . or is that a fixed mount?

[/img]

I simply cannot tell. These old Sun lenses, for me at least, are a real challenge. You add to that that half the time the photos are poor, and it's a genuine dilemma! Smile


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
Most of this lens i have seen is fixed mount. The Hoya HMC 3.5/25-42 is the same lens(with different coating?) with fixed mount.

If you are not sure, look for a mount that you can use. They are not expensive in the states.


I don't think the Hoya is the same Calvin. All the Hoyas were Tokinas with the exception of only two or thee of the zooms. Somewhere there is an old thread on Hoyas where posted a table that listed all of the Hoyas and the maker and apart from two or three zooms, they were all Tokinas. Makes sense because Hoya owned Tokina.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
calvin83 wrote:
Most of this lens i have seen is fixed mount. The Hoya HMC 3.5/25-42 is the same lens(with different coating?) with fixed mount.

If you are not sure, look for a mount that you can use. They are not expensive in the states.


I don't think the Hoya is the same Calvin. All the Hoyas were Tokinas with the exception of only two or thee of the zooms. Somewhere there is an old thread on Hoyas where posted a table that listed all of the Hoyas and the maker and apart from two or three zooms, they were all Tokinas. Makes sense because Hoya owned Tokina.

Check the copy own by Carsten and another flickr memebr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lucispictor-photo/3524741915/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/shiningcamera/6477309031/in/photostream/

Similarities:
1. same 72mm filter size
2. same MFD in normal mode: 0.8m
3. both has a macro button on the zoom ring in the same place
4. similar/same focal length and fixed F3.5 aperture
5. same style DOF scale markings
6. same style housing and even same name ring design
7. similar coating reflection

It is more than enough to conclude they are the same lens, isn't it?


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This table says it's a Tokina:

http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/sbko-hq/OTHERS/HOYA_HMC_LENS.html

This Sun/Tokina question keeps cropping up again and again, and we have never been able to figure out if the two companies collaborated, I strongly suspect they did.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
This table says it's a Tokina:

http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/sbko-hq/OTHERS/HOYA_HMC_LENS.html

This Sun/Tokina question keeps cropping up again and again, and we have never been able to figure out if the two companies collaborated, I strongly suspect they did.

It might be designed and manufactured by either sun or tokina or both. I think it is not safe to decide who made it from a single source without a reliable reference(unless the owner of the site worked for either company or know someone worked there). What can we confirm is they are the same lens but mark with slightly different focal length to differentiate them.

I do agree they had collaborated to make certain products to reduce the cost of design and manufacturing.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree with you Calvin. I just find it odd that, with most of the Hoyas being identical to Tokina models, that there's a Sun in the bunch, so it does point towards a Sun-Tokina collaboration.

Trying to unravel the mysteries of the Japanese optical industry is rather tricky. Smile


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
So I'd be curious to learn if you, or anyone else, thinks the below example of the subject lens has an interchangeable mount . . or is that a fixed mount?

[/img]

I simply cannot tell. These old Sun lenses, for me at least, are a real challenge. You add to that that half the time the photos are poor, and it's a genuine dilemma! Smile

This one has interchangeable (YS) mount - this metal tab on the top is a linkage between the aperture ring and the mount.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is my copy of the lens in fixed Nikon Ai mount





PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks, fellows. I appreciate all the responses and especially the latter two. I am very impressed by the ability of dimitrygo to identify that mount just from a photo. And SXR_Mark has presented the exact lens with a fixed mount. This demonstrates conclusively the existence of fixed mount versions and answers a key question for me. I did research the lens before posting here. You don't find much reference, out on the internet, to the fixed mount versions.

I can tell you I have a lot to learn before I can make mount ID on this Sun lens just from a photo. It makes purchase on eBay for me perilous. My best understanding is that, on the lenses with YS interchangeable mounts only, there is an underlying T2 mount. Using inexpensive adapters from China, such a lens can readily be converted to m42. Course if you think it's YS and it turns out nevertheless a fixed mount, you are absolutely toast. Rolling Eyes


PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What you really need to know is how does it perform? The majority of these old zooms are crappy. It doesn't matter what it can be mounted on or converted too if it's a turd. Wink


PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
What you really need to know is how does it perform? The majority of these old zooms are crappy. It doesn't matter what it can be mounted on or converted too if it's a turd. Wink


You are quite right. But it's important with MF lenses to avoid generalities. My investigation regarding this particular Sun lens, for example, has produced very constructive results w/r/t IQ.

YS mounts, OTOH, throw many eBay bidders into rather a confused tizzy not always unjustified. Knowledge regarding certain mount intricacies can be a tough get. Smile


PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It would be better to find out if the lens is any good or not before delving into minutiae about what mounts it was available in.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
It would be better to find out if the lens is any good or not before delving into minutiae about what mounts it was available in.


Whatever. I already agreed with the first part of that. And to me, the mount of any lens is very important.

While I'm sorry you don't agree, I wish you well regardless. Smile


PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Sun Wide Angle Zoom Macro 24-40mm f3.5 Mount Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
I've been fooled and disappointed in the past with Sun lenses bought on eBay . . . a couple of them. You research the lens on the internet and there are references stating interchangeable mounts (YS or T2) for the lens are routine. You buy. When the lens arrives it has a useless (to me) fixed mount.

Regarding the subject lens, it's the same thing all over again, and I'm having trouble knowing what's going on. It's frustrating dealing with these old Sun MF lens mounts. Apparently, back in the day, Sun would make the same lens two ways regarding mount: Some with fixed mounts and others of the very same lens (i.e., same nominal specifications) with removable mount.


Seems to me you mistaken SUN for SIGMA. SUN is rarely found with T2 / YS, whereas SIGMA was producing them for more then a decade.

Here a partial list of Sigma lenses 1970-1980 from ksmt.com:



PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Sun Wide Angle Zoom Macro 24-40mm f3.5 Mount Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
guardian wrote:
I've been fooled and disappointed in the past with Sun lenses bought on eBay . . . a couple of them. You research the lens on the internet and there are references stating interchangeable mounts (YS or T2) for the lens are routine. You buy. When the lens arrives it has a useless (to me) fixed mount.

Regarding the subject lens, it's the same thing all over again, and I'm having trouble knowing what's going on. It's frustrating dealing with these old Sun MF lens mounts. Apparently, back in the day, Sun would make the same lens two ways regarding mount: Some with fixed mounts and others of the very same lens (i.e., same nominal specifications) with removable mount.


Seems to me you mistaken SUN for SIGMA. SUN is rarely found with T2 / YS, whereas SIGMA was producing them for more then a decade.

Here a partial list of Sigma lenses 1970-1980 from ksmt.com:


Gosh, that's a wonderful chart for the Sigma lenses. Thank you for that! It deserves its own thread I think. It's very good.

On the Sun lenses, the three I own so far with the YS-style mounts are the YS-70, the YS-85, and most recently the 25-40 f3.5 which arrived today.

I've been trying to learn the YS mount. Am at the point now where I know enough to stop using the term "YS mount". Henceforth will be using the "YS-style mount" appellation. Here is why:

Virtually all YS-style mounts I have encountered have different flange diameters!

At the beginning I was looking upon YS as being not unlike Adaptall, Adaptall 2, T4, and TX. I don't mean to imply similarity of design; those are all different. But the guiding feature of those other interchangeable mounts is their universality. For example:

If you have a T4 lens it will work with any T4 adapter. Adaptall 2 lenses and Adaptall 2 adapters all work with one another.

So I started out thinking YS was based on a similar concept of mount standardization and interchangeability. I now realize my error. Here is YS flange diameter data I've collected so far from several lenses:

Sun 24-40 55mm
Sun YS-70 56.5mm
Sun YS-85 52mm

I also have an Upsilon (Sigma) lens here with a YS-style mount having a 57mm flange diameter!

Thus, bottom line, am not seeing the anticipated standardization with YS.

Live and learn. Sad


PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Sun Wide Angle Zoom Macro 24-40mm f3.5 Mount Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:

Seems to me you mistaken SUN for SIGMA. SUN is rarely found with T2 / YS, whereas SIGMA was producing them for more then a decade.


It depends on a specific lens you are looking after. Some lenses can be found mostly in YS mount, some in fixed mount.

guardian wrote:
Virtually all YS-style mounts I have encountered have different flange diameters!


I think the flange diameter is really important only for 24-40 zoom because it's aperture coupling tab is mounted on the bottom part of the aperture ring due to a huge diameter of the lens. May be there are other lenses with similar design but I don't remember seeing anything more like that. I guess for all other lenses with "conventional" design of the aperture coupling tab the flange diameter of the adapter is not important as long as you use the matching aperture coupling tab.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a Sun 24-40 that looks just like the one pictured here. Mine is also in Canon FD mount. Sadly, when I bought it as part of an outfit, the mount was loose. And when I went to tighten it, a piece of the FD mount linkage fell out. So I have to see if I can get that piece to go back into place and to stay there.

But the only reason why I'm mentioning it at all is because of some comments made by the fellow that I bought the outfit from -- which had included a Canon A-1 and a few other nice Canon lenses. He told me that the lens was so good that he just left it on his A-1 all the time, and never bothered with using any of his other lenses.

So apparently it is a very capable lens. I still shoot Canon FD and I have a Vivitar S1 24-48 that needs some minor servicing as well. So I need to get one of these lenses back in working condition. Since I've already used the Vivitar, I'm most anxious to get the Sun working again because I want to find out for myself if this lens is really as good as its previous owner claimed.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:
I have a Sun 24-40 that looks just like the one pictured here. Mine is also in Canon FD mount. Sadly, when I bought it as part of an outfit, the mount was loose. And when I went to tighten it, a piece of the FD mount linkage fell out. So I have to see if I can get that piece to go back into place and to stay there.

But the only reason why I'm mentioning it at all is because of some comments made by the fellow that I bought the outfit from -- which had included a Canon A-1 and a few other nice Canon lenses. He told me that the lens was so good that he just left it on his A-1 all the time, and never bothered with using any of his other lenses.

So apparently it is a very capable lens. I still shoot Canon FD and I have a Vivitar S1 24-48 that needs some minor servicing as well. So I need to get one of these lenses back in working condition. Since I've already used the Vivitar, I'm most anxious to get the Sun working again because I want to find out for myself if this lens is really as good as its previous owner claimed.


Agreed. The lens is modestly well spoken of, both here within this forum on other threads and, also, outside this forum. I now own two of these, the Sun YS-style mount version, and a Hoya 25-42mm f3.5 with the m42 mount. It's very interesting to compare the two lenses, which are nearly identical with the Hoya being a cut above in terms of finish. Both lenses are, I expect, the same optically. Also, I strongly believe my two lenses have manufacturing dates somewhat separated. It's possible the Hoya would not appear better finished if compared with a Sun made the same year (I think the Hoya is newer, though both lenses are, of course, quite old).


dimitrygo wrote:




guardian wrote:
Virtually all YS-style mounts I have encountered have different flange diameters!


I think the flange diameter is really important only for 24-40 zoom because it's aperture coupling tab is mounted on the bottom part of the aperture ring due to a huge diameter of the lens. May be there are other lenses with similar design but I don't remember seeing anything more like that. I guess for all other lenses with "conventional" design of the aperture coupling tab the flange diameter of the adapter is not important as long as you use the matching aperture coupling tab.


Well, here's the rub:

In order for the, for any, YS-style adapter to serve well, its throat diameter must be a decent size match for the lens flange diameter. If the adapter throat is too large the lens is much more likely to be off center. If the adapter throat diameter is too small, the lens flange will not fit into the adapter and the latter will be unusable.

Just to pick on T4:

Any T4 adapter will work with any T4 lens. There exists an entire family of lenses and adapters, all interoperable.

Picking now on Tamron:

With Adaptall 2, you already are aware of the amazing variety of lenses in that family, including many SP lenses, which will function smoothly with any Adaptall 2 adapter for any camera mount. It's a standardized system.

All I'm saying is that YS is different. I have YS adapters that came with one Sun YS-style lens and will not fit properly onto another Sun YS-style lens. Ditto for the non-Sun lenses. YS is a style of mount, but not a standardized mount system as are the others. At least that's what my personal experience is telling me so far. I remain very much a student of YS so, for certain, I might be missing something.

FWIW, when I first realized this I was surprised as heck. I didn't see the lack of interoperability coming. Sad

Last edited by guardian on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is very interesting... I have nearly every T4 and TX lens and never a problem as long as I don't try to fit TX adapters to T4 lenses. I have no YS lenses (though I do have one adapter!), and always assumed there was 100% compatibility.


PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Sun 24-40 F3.5 Reply with quote
The lens I have was originally set up as a Canon FD mount. Just screwed off the YS-EFI mount and with a little modification on the stop down pens screwed on a PE mount, mounted it to the camera with a auto confirm M42 to EOS adapter. Results are a very useable lens.
Pictures taken with the sun 24-40 mounted to a Canon 5DII. I wouldn't consider it a turd. Look and you be the judge. I got this one off Ebay for under $25.00 including shipping. Total investment is around $60.00 with all the adapters.

http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww163/larrycalhoun/Sun%2024-40/Sun24-40MF.jpg
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww163/larrycalhoun/Sun%2024-40/Sun24-40100Crop.jpg
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww163/larrycalhoun/Sun%2024-40/Sun24-40-2MF.jpg
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww163/larrycalhoun/Sun%2024-40/Sun24-40-3MF.jpg
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