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Sonnar 1.5 6cm , Can I get some info? (Pics Added)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject: Sonnar 1.5 6cm , Can I get some info? (Pics Added) Reply with quote
Here it is:







Its design looks like Attila's Luftwaffe Sonnar.. on the back of the lens cap it says 51mm Made In Germany

Its in a very good, new like condition, cosmetically and optically!
im just amazed sitting and looking at it Shocked


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
first one what I seen Shocked Congrats!

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113452
http://www.pigment-print.com/Fotografica/CJZ%20Sonnar%2060%20f1.5%20LTM/target1.html

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5865407


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Congrats
That's a rare lens in good condition Smile
Time to make some test pictures with it Smile


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I dont have a rangefinder type camera! only my 60D....


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm pretty sure, that this will be a fake Zeiss Sonnar lens.
Have one in Exakta mount (with Carl Zeiss Jena engraving) and mine is, although engraved as 6cm, around 8,5cm. Compared field of view with my Sonnar 1:2 f=8,5cm.
Weight of the slow 1:2 Sonnar is 460gr compared to the ultra fast 1,5 with 180 gr........
Klaus


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
can you post a picture of the lens?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, will add some

Klaus


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alu tube looks fake me too, need to make a research on .net I saw brass finish 6cm lens.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The DOF scale is reversed, too. Mind, there are only a handful of them about, so chances are that all of them are prototypes where such an error is more likely to have remained uncorrected than on a production lens.

But it more likely that you hit upon a fake than the real thing - there are too many things that look wrong. For example, the dimensions don't look right, apart from looking far too small (which is hard to determine without a scale) the proportions look much more like a 2.0/50mm than a 1.5/50mm, while a 1.5/60 should have quite the same proportions as the latter...


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's a 6cm f/1.5 LTM-one on eBay: Click here to see on Ebay


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If I recall correctly, all of this "6cm Sonnar" lenses, appearing frequently, were military lenses (not for photography, but used for targeting) that were adapted after WWII and disguised as Zeiss lenses. Interesting as collector's item, but pretty crap when it comes to serious photo-taking. Optically they are something around 1:2,8 ~ 8cm.

Klaus


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
well i found this page, and the lens the looks dead even like mine, only spanner ring on front element is different and there are no F stop engravings only red dots...

What do you think could the lens in this link be a real one?
http://www.kevincameras.com/gallery/v/non_leica_sm_len/zeiss/140717/?g2_page=1


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok this whole thing made me drink some more coffee, and smoke a few too many cigarette's...

So i decided to compare this sonnar size to a 50 f1.4 takumar (glass size) and to a Jupiter 8 50 f2 glass and general size.

Theres alot of pictures comping and a comparison with the Jupiter 8 in the end.






Comparing rings\focus rings



I've unscrewed the optics from the focusing helicoid



I dont know how you call them but those tunnels in the retaining ring, usually you only have 2 for unscrewing the ring, but here there are 6 of those on the rear ring.








I can see that there is a green coating reflecting on one of the elements.






Now im comparing the sonnar to jupiter 8, using 1 500w light, all settings manual on 60d including manual WB, the same with both lenses, I do not have an adapter so im holding each lens by hand practically inside the eos mount.

Sonnar @ f1.5


Jupiter @ f2 (Sonnar Clearly brighter)


Sonnar @ f2


Jupiter @ f2


***
** Now very important, To take the pics with Jupiter 8 lens ,I had to move Closer to the subject by at least 10cm! so it may seem as both lenses have the same view area, wich is not true. you will see this at the end. ********

Sonnar @ f2.8 (missed focus slightly)


Now Without moving forward with the Jupiter 8 @ f2.8 it looks like this:


and now i moved forward to focus



Sorry if i bored everyone with my long test and many pictures taken.

ill be glad to hear what you think in this topic


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
More easier to judge on it now, seems not made from Jupiter, perhaps a hybrid ?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Looks fake to me sadly enough (as well as teh one in kevincamera site), there is no ZEISS mentioned and teh serial number is non exiting in THIELE's books. Military numbering usually is very different from that, but a 6 digit number would be way to low for a coated lens if made by Zeiss (Jena or West)


PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here are some pictures of my fake 6cm Sonnar





Klaus


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow this is a really amazingly good fake Smile
There's also a M39 50mm F1.5 Sonnar made by Zeiss and by KMZ (called Jupiter 3) which looks slightly similar and really exists bye the way.

I like to see how these fake lenses perform.
Who made them if not Zeiss? Or is it third party cheap lens with a Zeiss-Like fake casing? The production of and working with optical glass to make very difficult. Shocked


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
the lens is not obviously coated like other lenses from zeiss or others, there isnt any color to the coating, but i do suspect there is some form of early colorless coating like an oxidation layer type, maybe

the s/n could be of a prototype since i found some prototypes from zeiss to have 6 digit s/n

why there is not Zeiss Jena or other Zeiss engravings on the lens is beyond me, because if you wanted to fake a zeiss wouldnt you want to engrave the Zeiss name on it?!


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I doubt this is a fake as it's not unique, identical ones have turned up.

This is one:



Thread discussing it here:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45497

At a guess, I'd say this is a WW2 military item.

Have a look at this PDF, it has a similar lens with the 6 spanner indentations and make reference to a verified authentic 6cm Sonnar owned by a prominent collector called Fricke:

http://www.leica-historica.de/VIDOM_92.pdf


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting!


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What does the pdf say Ian? i cant read Dutch...

Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ForenSeil wrote:
Wow this is a really amazingly good fake Smile
There's also a M39 50mm F1.5 Sonnar made by Zeiss and by KMZ (called Jupiter 3) which looks slightly similar and really exists bye the way.

I like to see how these fake lenses perform.
Who made them if not Zeiss? Or is it third party cheap lens with a Zeiss-Like fake casing? The production of and working with optical glass to make very difficult. Shocked


Not really good, when screwing the lens out of the focussing device, you can see that it was made by a skilled backyard technican. And the internal number on the rear, that can be seen after breaking it into two parts is 1407/.
Not a prototype by Zeiss. Zeiss prototypes were made very precisely and technically perfect. No slipshod work.
I'm sure, these lenses were made in batches by a skilled technican from left-over military parts from WWII.

Klaus


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

At a guess, I'd say this is a WW2 military item.

Have a look at this PDF, it has a similar lens with the 6 spanner indentations and make reference to a verified authentic 6cm Sonnar owned by a prominent collector called Fricke:

http://www.leica-historica.de/VIDOM_92.pdf


I rather doubt the wartime origin. All experts identify it as being not Zeiss Jena made, and the document you link to positively identifies the unique coating as one only known from a Swiss contractor, used on a Berthiot lens in the 46-48 time frame (which would place the lenses after the war). The "genuine" lenses you link to don't have any mention of Zeiss on the engraving either.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The though thing here is that (so i've read) it is thought that Zeiss released a 1.5 6cm lens for Leica mount in a very small batch, and stopped soon after, the problem here, is that no one seems to have a genuine copy so we will be able to compare it the non genuine ones.

Or, this information is not true, and maybe zeiss never did release a 6cm 1.5 for Leica in the first place.

this is the problem, can some one give info on that?


PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Smoli4 wrote:

Or, this information is not true, and maybe zeiss never did release a 6cm 1.5 for Leica in the first place.

this is the problem, can some one give info on that?


I have never heard of any reference to anything like that in the Zeiss records - which are quite complete down to individual prototypes. But not all records have a good description, and being ordered by serial and date of production, it is possible that items of unclear description, unknown date and with wrong or missing serial might escape everybody. You can't really prove a negative, but overall it is very unlikely...
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