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Sharp 180/2.8?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Sharp 180/2.8? Reply with quote
Has anyone done an actual side-by-side shootout comparison of a Nikkor 180/2.8 Ai-s and a (non-APO) Leitz Elmarit 180/2.8 second version? Does the Leitz have any merits over the Nikkor and is it worth double the cost used?

(I've had a CZJ 200/2.8 for a while and while the bokeh is excellent, it's a little less sharp than I would like it to be. I'm looking for a 180-200ish lens that's sharp wide open but not astronomical in cost -- can't afford the "serious" APOs out there. And yes I need f/2.8 since I want to be able to use this for indoor action.)

... and any other MF lenses worth looking at in this general price range (200-600)? Looked at Contax 180/2.8 too but everyone says it's less than stellar compared to the Nikkor.

Sorry to bring this topic up again! I searched all over the forum but all I could find is claims by people with only one lens and no side-by-side shots. Smile so curious if anyone has done it by any chance.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you want the best value, the Nikkor is hard to beat. This is a fantastic lens. Sharpness, bokeh, handling... Beautiful.
I sold it because I bought a Zeiss Vario-Sonnar 100-300mm, and I didn't need the extra speed for most of my shots. But I regret it sometimes.

I never tried the Leica but... I am not sure if a 180mm can do much better than the mighty Nikkor, except an APO one. Seriously.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
+1 to what Billou wrote. I owned the 180/2.8 ED AI-s Nikkor and it was simply a great lens. Very sharp, lovely bokeh, wonderful color and contrast. I loved mine and the only reason why I sold it was because I needed to raise money for something important at the time -- sold off most of my Nikon kit then, in fact.

To me, the ideal manual focus 180mm or 200mm lens would have at least f/2.8 as its maximum aperture, it would have low-dispersion glass, and it would have internal focusing. The only mf lens that fits this bill that I'm aware of is the Tamron 180mm f/2.8 LDIF, a fairly rare lens, but a very good one that usually sells for about twice what the Nikkor does on eBay.

I had been wanting to replace my Nikkor 180 -- I guess it was a couple of years ago now -- and I was doing due diligence for all affordable 180 to 200mm focal length lenses with approximately f/2.8 as its maximum aperture. As much as I would have liked to have the Tamron, it was out of my price range. Back in the 80s I had a very nice Canon FD outfit and one of the lenses was the New FD 200mm f/2.8. Internal focusing but it did not have any sort of low dispersion glass. Which was a real mistake on Canon's part, I've always felt. In fact, I have always felt that the 200mm f/2.8 should have been an "L" lens. Apparently, Canon belatedly agreed. Canon offered no FD 200mm "L" lenses for the entire life of the FD line, but then suddenly produced an FD 200mm f/1.8 L in 1990, four years after they ceased production of FD lenses! It is said that they did this at the repeated insistence of F-1 and T90 owners who were hardcore FD users and who demanded a best quality 200mm. Well they got it, but it's a rare bird nowadays. And an expensive one. Back to the 200/2.8, though: my copy of this lens was very sharp with wonderful bokeh, contrast, color, you name it. But in bright light conditions I had to be very careful how I used it because it was extremely prone to chromatic aberration -- green and magenta fringing everywhere, bad enough to ruin a photo. Of course, these days, that's not such an issue, but back then it was a real problem. So anyway because of my negative experience with the Canon 200/2.8 and my very positive experience with the Nikon 180/2.8 ED, when I was in the market for one a couple years ago, I made a point of avoiding any lens that wasn't APO or didn't contain low-dispersion glass.

One of the nice things about the adaptall-2.org site is it has a lot of the old Modern Photography test reports, and not all of them are for Tamron lenses. Frequently there are test reports for lenses that were equivalent to the Tamrons. Such is the case with the Tamron 180mm. Along with the MP test report for the Tamron, there are test reports shown for four other lenses -- the Nikon 180mm f/2.8, the Olympus 180mm f/2.8, the Olympus 180mm f/2. and the Minolta 200mm f/2.8. No Canon FD unfortunately. The Tamron and Nikon are grouped side by side on the page, so it was natural for me to check out the Nikon's numbers when I was visiting that page -- the Oly and Minolta lenses were listed below. Also, as fortune would have it, adaptall-2.org also has a MP test report on the Tamron 80-200mm f/2.8 LD zoom. One day I was browsing through the listings and looking at the Nikon 180's numbers on the Tamron 180 page, and they seemed familiar to me. And then I remembered where I had just been -- I had been looking at the numbers for the 80-200/2.8 zoom. So, I went back and forth between these two lenses, comparing the Nikon 180 to the Tamron zoom at its 200mm focal length. And what I discovered was that the resolution and contrast numbers were almost identical between these two lenses. Wow. A zoom that was just as sharp and contrasty as Nikon's legendary 180. So here was another lens I had to include in my research.

Well, shortly after I made that discovery I found the Tamron zoom over at KEH. They had one there in BGN condition -- its only problem was the zoom collar slipped sightly. Which is pretty much a non problem to me, since most of the 1-touch zooms I own have collars that slip to one degree or another. So anyway, I bought the Tamron zoom and I feel it was a very wise purchase decision on my part. Because of its BGN rating it was priced at an extremely attractive $250. When it arrived, I was quite impressed. BGN indeed -- the lens was in almost mint condition except for a couple of very tiny marks on the barrel. And as far as collar slip goes -- it doesn't slip when the lens is placed one way, and then barely slips when it's inverted. But it is a big and heavy lens -- as big as the Nikkor, but even heavier. Just as sharp and contrasty as my old Nikkor 180, though, and has creamy soft bokeh.

So anyway, sorry for the length of this note, but I wanted to sort of tell the whole story, since I've been where you are right now.

Last edited by cooltouch on Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Tamron SP 180mm f/2.5 adaptall-2 lens is a stellar performer. It is a very light and tiny lens for such a fast tele lens and easy to carry around.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
None of them above sharper than CZJ 200 and I doubt you will find any sharper. I had Tamron, Nikon ED all pretty much same sharp wide open, most sharpening error come wide open from miss focusing , shoot wide open not a good idea if you need f2.8 look an F2.0 lens.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
None of them above sharper than CZJ 200 and I doubt you will find any sharper. I had Tamron, Nikon ED all pretty much same sharp wide open, most sharpening error come wide open from miss focusing , shoot wide open not a good idea if you need f2.8 look an F2.0 lens.


I'm dead sure it isn't focusing error in my case, I've done it on tripod and everything and can't get the results people are getting with Nikon or even Leica non-APO. It may be that I got a soft copy of CZJ though. Also horrible fringing ...


PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In searching around online I stumbled on Mamiya 200/2.8 APO. Any thoughts on this lens?


PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
None of them above sharper than CZJ 200 and I doubt you will find any sharper. I had Tamron, Nikon ED all pretty much same sharp wide open, most sharpening error come wide open from miss focusing , shoot wide open not a good idea if you need f2.8 look an F2.0 lens.

+1


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
shoot wide open not a good idea


+10

Turn up the iso, get a camera with in-body IS, do whatever you can to avoid shooting wide open. You'll be amazed how much better lenses are when closed at least 1 stop.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Attila wrote:
shoot wide open not a good idea


+10

Turn up the iso, get a camera with in-body IS, do whatever you can to avoid shooting wide open. You'll be amazed how much better lenses are when closed at least 1 stop.


Oh sure, of course, I'm well aware of that and that's what I do for most daytime situations. But when you're shooting indoor sports, weddings, and whatnot, it helps to have lenses that actually work wide open. Smile
Shot a friends basketball event last week, couldn't push anything past f/2.8 really. ZF 28/2, Contax 85/1.4 and 135/2.8 are all spectacular wide open, Jena 200/2.8 not so much.

Contax 85/1.4 at f/2


Contax 135/2.8 at f/2.8




Zeiss ZF 28/2 at f/2




Now you see why I need fast lens ...

Here's a Jena 200/2.8 shot.



Looks sharp at web resolution (the focus is actually on the ball) but cropped it's less than stellar ... not the best lens for prints, weddings, and new HD displays as much as I would like it to be ...


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here are 2 pictures with 100% crops from near the center. Focused carefully with monopod, multiple tries to make sure I nailed each, ISO 800 on 6D.

Contax 135/2.8




Jena 200/2.8





Basically, sharpness of Jena is so poor I could have done better by cropping and resizing the Contax 135 output (below) ... Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed this effectively renders 200/2.8 almost useless ...



PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Unfortunately not the same price range I know, but incredible sharp lenses (& fast) are the Nikkor 2/200mm and the Angenieux APO 2.3/180mm, here one sample with both lenses:
nikkor:


Angenieux:


And an other great 180mm lens is the Jupiter 6 2.8/180mm, it's much cheaper than the two above and also very usable wide open, here one sample wide open for example:



Good luck in your search!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here are some samples of the Nikkor 180mm f/2.8 ED Ais, all wide open at f/2.8.
100% crop of the picture is included. Taken with Fuji X-E1.













This thing is a beast, for me this lens is a better investment and value than anything else if you find it below 200-250 euros.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nikkor AIS ED 180/2.8 is the best bet and value for money.Nikkor AF 180/2.8 ED is a tad better but twice as expensive.Tamron macro 180/3.5 though slower is also an excellent tele and macro.Zeiss Sonnar 180/2.8 for Contax is sharp but has too much CA wide open.The same refers to the Canon FD 200/2.8

Sonnar 180/2.8 + Canon 5D2
http://zeissimages.com/gallery/951/U951I1360268166.SEQ.1.jpg
Sonnar 180/2.8 + 5D "classic"
http://zeissimages.com/gallery/951/U951I1326916221.SEQ.0.jpg

Nikkor 180/2.8 AIS + Canon 5D2
http://zeissimages.com/gallery/951/U951I1335110769.SEQ.1.jpg
http://zeissimages.com/gallery/951/U951I1335110769.SEQ.0.jpg

Nikon d200 + Tamron 180/3.5 macro
http://zeissimages.com/gallery/951/U951I1344796900.SEQ.0.jpg

Kodak DCS Pro SLR/n + Tamron 180/3.5 macro
http://zeissimages.com/gallery/951/U951I1360396052.SEQ.3.jpg[url][/url]

Last edited by shapencolour on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just curious, I notice there are lots of different versions of the Nikkor 180/2.8, P, PC, ED AI-S, D AF, ED AF-S, etc, spanning from non AI to AF-S. Are they all not bad choices or are there any versions to avoid?

Thanks!


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:


Turn up the iso, get a camera with in-body IS, do whatever you can to avoid shooting wide open. You'll be amazed how much better lenses are when closed at least 1 stop.


While I agree that stopped down, lenses usually perform better. But there are lenses that have stellar performance wide-open, and are built to have a wide apperture and optimized to shoot wide-open for a reason - to avoid bumping up the ISO, to allow to use a fast shutter speed. And this is the case here, I see some sports photos here, so stopping down will degrade arguably even more (higher ISO or a blurred photo).
Even you're not an adept of shooting wide-open, I'd take into account the situations in which the lenses are used.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks all for the wonderful samples! The Nikkor definitely looks like a winner for my budget.

@shapencolor, your sample link seems to not work for some reason (?)

@cooltouch Thanks for the story! Looks then that the Canon FD isn't for me even if I could adapt it, as I want to avoid excessive fringing (or else I'd get the Contax Sonnar ...). Tamron 80-200 looks attractive! Though it seems hard to find ...

bruzzo wrote:
Just curious, I notice there are lots of different versions of the Nikkor 180/2.8, P, PC, ED AI-S, D AF, ED AF-S, etc, spanning from non AI to AF-S. Are they all not bad choices or are there any versions to avoid?
Thanks!


Personally: ED Ai-S is what I'd be looking for, and that's the lens everyone seems to be raving out. I definitely want ED (low dispersion) glass, not the older non-ED version; and I definitely do NOT want an AF lens (AF=failing plastic parts, crappy manual handling, and I want to use it on Canon so it wouldn't work as an AF lens anyway).


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ED Ai-S is the most sought after version. Get this one, it will also be the most easy to sell if you're going to sell it one day.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The elmar 4/180 R is a good lens. Obviuosly, is not the Apo-Telyt, but good anyways.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Billou wrote:
ED Ai-S is the most sought after version. Get this one, it will also be the most easy to sell if you're going to sell it one day.


I agree with this. Get the ED AI-s. It's a great lens. Or, if money is a concern and should you run across a good deal on the Tamron 80-200/2.8 LD, it also is excellent and is equivalent to the Nikon 180 ED in sharpness and contrast.

The reason for all the alphabet soup after the aperture number on the other Nikon lenses is a result of Nikon's sticking to a single lens mount since 1959 and slowly evolving their lenses away from mechanical to electronic interfaces.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
cooltouch wrote:


The reason for all the alphabet soup after the aperture number on the other Nikon lenses is a result of Nikon's sticking to a single lens mount since 1959 and slowly evolving their lenses away from mechanical to electronic interfaces.


Ah just the man I'm looking for, for a quickie ..will a Nikon AF D lens work on an old film Nikon AF camera i.e. F-401?


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't know wuxiekeji why these links doesn't work.This was my first post on mflenses and I'm not quite familiar with uploading/sharing pictures onthis side.

Again,Canon 5D2+180/2.8 AIS ED Nikon



Canon 5D2+C/Y Sonnar 180/2.8



Kodak SLR/n + Tamron 180/3.5


Nikon D200 + Tamron 180/3.5



Hope,this time pictures will be visible Very Happy


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are far more interesting 150-180-200mm lenses,but usually slower than f2.8.

One of my favourites is Sigma APO Macro 180/5.6.Smal and compact with excellent IQ.I got AF (bulkier) and MF (smaller) versions - optically the same.

Nikon D600+Sigma 180/5.6 Apo Macro AF


NEX5N+Sigma 180/5.6 Apo Macro MF Minolta MD mount


Then come a few others

Sigma Apo Macro 150/2.8 (with no OS) + Canon 40D


Sigma 150/2.8+Canon 5D2



Zeiss Tele Tessar 200/4 C/Y+ Canon 550D


Canon FD 200/4 Macro + NEX5N



Canon 450D+Leica Apo Telyt R 180/3.5



MC/MD Tele Rokkor 200/4,Konica Hexanon AR 200/3.5,Yashica ML 200/4,Olympus OM Zuiko 200/4 and 200/5,ect,ect:)


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
while I don't have a pic handy, I own the tamron 180mm F2.5 SP LD IF lens and its the sharpest telephoto
I have ever owned. They sell for around $600-700 on ebay and they are worth it in my honest opinion.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excalibur wrote:
cooltouch wrote:


The reason for all the alphabet soup after the aperture number on the other Nikon lenses is a result of Nikon's sticking to a single lens mount since 1959 and slowly evolving their lenses away from mechanical to electronic interfaces.


Ah just the man I'm looking for, for a quickie ..will a Nikon AF D lens work on an old film Nikon AF camera i.e. F-401?


Well, I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I just happen to own a Nikon 80-300 AF-D lens. Just looking at it, I don't see why it wouldn't work. D lenses still have an aperture ring. My lens has a standard AI-s mount with the aperture lever, plus an additional 5 electrical contacts located inside the mount perimeter. It also has the little "wheel" used to engage the camera's AF motor. Looking at my notes I see that the F-401 (N4004) should autofocus with this type of lens. They also state that the F-401 (N4004) will provide focusing confirmation with manual focus lenses that have a maximum aperture of at least f/5.6.
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