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Pentax Full Frame this Spring!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
... Currently I am using a plain groundglass on my Pentax, and I find it the best ever for MF.


What is this? From where?
I have a recent retired Smile K7. I'd like to turn it into a MF camera with other focusing screen.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbazz wrote:

If only Pentax had chosen to go with the same mount but with a 18.46mm registration distance, it would have allowed to build much smaller cameras that coulld be used with lenses from all make and model (and would retain full compatibility with K-mount DSLR lenses with the use of a simple 27mm extension tube).
....


I am still waiting and hope that Pentax will make such a camera. Tuzki with lens


PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.focusingscreen.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_100&products_id=1116

The S-type from focusingscreen.com

Mine is on my K30

The main and messiest thing about focusing screens is that they have to be correctly shimmed, and this is a tedious process.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks. I think of a microprisms focusing screen, but that disrupts the AF system. Is the AF system working correctly with the S type screen?


PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My K-30 seems to be OK with AF, so no problem.
Just my experience, your camera could be different, etc.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
edri wrote:
Thanks. I think of a microprisms focusing screen, but that disrupts the AF system. Is the AF system working correctly with the S type screen?


As far as I know, the AF sub-system of a DSLR camera is independent of the focusing screen. Check out here:
https://photographylife.com/how-phase-detection-autofocus-works


PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I wouldn't expect the Pentax FF to be large and bulky like the Canikons. Remember, back during the late 70s, Pentax was battling with Olympus over who could produce the smallest 35mm SLR. So there's no reason to think that, just because it'll be FF, it'll be a large camera. And from what I've seen of the "FF Under Glass" it seems to be rather on the petite side to me. However, personally, I don't mind the heft and a larger size. If I were to get one of those, like the one under glass, one of the first things I'd be looking for would be an accessory grip, in fact.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
+ 1 for another S-type screen in a Pentax. I've used on in a K10 and K5 without any problems. Auto focus is not affected. AND! It actually made measuring exposure more accurate Wink


PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
http://www.focusingscreen.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_100&products_id=1116

The S-type from focusingscreen.com

Mine is on my K30

The main and messiest thing about focusing screens is that they have to be correctly shimmed, and this is a tedious process.


Do the genuine Pentax screens need shimming?


PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I haven't seen a Pentax factory screen that would need a shim.
Pentax doesn't make a plain groundglass or pretty much any factory screens.
So if you are going to add a third party screen you need third party shims.
The focusingscreens.com package comes with a set of shims.
I know Canon has an elaborate shim system for their optional screens.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
To 'shim' the focusing screens for my *istDs and K-x I had used stripes of thin adhesive tape along the two sides of the screen.
Of course it was a bit of a tedious work to stick on a certain number of them, installing the screen and to do test shots and repeating the procedure until the number of layers of the tape was just right


PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Of course it was a bit of a tedious work to stick on a certain number of them, installing the screen and to do test shots and repeating the procedure until the number of layers of the tape was just right"

Yes, that's it precisely. It can be a lot of work.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
because the *istDs is made for exchanging focusing screen while the K-x isn't this work was quite a bit smoother to do on the *istDs. I am not up to date which newer Pentax dSLRs are made for exchanging screen and which one's aren't.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, they do seem late to the party. Canikon FFs will live a long time, but that's because they offer a true system, which Sony does not. Even the natives lenses Sony does offer are fraught with copy variation and build issues, though the Batis do seem better. Sony seems more bent to make money and video than to give Canikon pros a real alternative. Single cards and the Nex batteries are just absurd for a 3 thousand dollar "pro" camera. Has many pixels and BSI, and 4K though. So at least they point the way forward Smile

While the Pentax looks big, I think I will wait to flame it till we really see what it is and what it can do Smile

In the long run the Sony E series is crippled by the NEX mount (too narrow) and other decisions, but at some point someone will get serious and produce a well-finished small EVIL system, complete with smaller 2.8 fast zoom trinity, strong primes, smaller long lenses to 500/4, with great follow focus. And it if they are smart, they will keep a short register and thin cover glass to entice lens lovers with their favorites. EVF will need to be at the Leica SL level, as the A7r2 still lags.

Then some serious money will be made Smile


PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
But in all fairness, If its a smaller lighter cheaper water proof D800, that will nearly do. Razz

And hijacking back to the focusing screens... I did not have any trouble with the shims as others have described. The focus screen was the single greatest piece of gear I ever bought for my K10 / K5


PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
right Abbazz size difference between the A7 and the Canon 5D III is huge, of course! But do you really think the new Pentax FF will have a comparable size to the Canon 5D III? I definitely don't and expect it to be considerably smaller!

It will certainly be somewhat smaller than a Canon EOS 5D but not that much smaller. The body needs to be deep enough to accommodate for the long registration distance, the mirror needs to be large enough in order to prevent vignetting with telephoto lenses and the big pentaprism cannot be miniaturized except by reducing the effective coverage (but who wants a DSLR with a viewfinder that doesn't show the whole image?).

Thinking about registration distance, one thing that would make a mirrorless camera even more attractive is an autofocus adapter for manual lenses: a kind of adjustable extension tube with a male Sony E-Mount at one end, a female M-42 mount (or any other SLR mount of your choice) at the other end and a small motor to extend or retract the tube according to the commands send by the camera through the e-Mount electrical contacts. There are already Chinese adapters that can be used to have Canon-EF, Contax-N or Contax-G lenses autofocus on a Sony camera, meaning that the E-Mount autofocus control protocol has already been reverse-engineered, so an "universal autofocus adapter" is certainly something that could be built today.

Of course Pentax had something similar in the past (the 1.7X AF Adapter) but the Pentax contraption contained some glass elements in order to allow for the lens to focus on the image plane despite the added length of the AF Adapter, resulting in an 1.7X image magnification (like an 1.7X teleconverter) and almost 2 stop light loss. By adapting an SLR lens to a mirrorless body, there will be ample space to allow for the focusing device to be inserted in the optical path while allowing infinity focusing without the need of any additional glass element.

Hey, guys in Zhōngguó, if you do manufacture the adapter, don't forget to send me a crate in assorted mounts as a token of appreciation for my free contribution! Laughing

kuuan wrote:
- ( As you know some Pentax prime lenses, like e.g. the FA ltd. 43 are very small, could qualify as a 'pancake'. I am quite certain that the Pentax FF + the ltd 43 or even with the FA50, which is an f1.4 lens, will be close in size to the A7II + it's native FE 50mm that is an f1.8 lens, at least much closer than to the 5D III with it's native 50mm, don't you think so? The Pentax FF with the 43mm might well not be bigger than the A7II + FE 50mm at all. )
Well, it's all mere speculation and we will have to wait and see.

Sorry but I don't think it will be possible. I am ready to bet that the new Pentax full-frame DSLR, even with the diminutive FA 43 lens, will be much bulkier and heavier than the Sony A7II with the FE 55 lens, even though the FE 55 is physically very long for a normal lens (70mm!), so the FE 55 on an A7 may in protrude a few millimeters more than the FA 43 on the new Pentax full-frame DSLR.

kuuan wrote:
personally I like EVFs, but I wonder, have by now all those who had been saying that they never will get used to one and only consider an OVF disappeared? If they still exist, and if some of them like a compact system, than the Pentax FF should have it's targets.

I consider the optical viewfinder to be a thing of the past, which was a necessary evil when cameras used film but has no justification nowadays. With the replacement of film by a sensor directly delivering an image that can be displayed instantly and accurately on an electronic screen, it seems a bit weird to instist on using an optical viewfinder delivering an approximate rendition of the final image, without even taking into account the settings of the camera. Even manually focusing a lens can be done much more quickly and accurately by using an electronic image (electronic viewfinder or LCD screen) than by using an optical focusing device (ground glass or rangefinder). Of course, manufacturers of SLR cameras are working hard to try to convince people that the optical viewfinder has magical qualities that make it the only viable solution for serious photographers. But with every kid in the world learning to take pictures on a smartphone or a tablet, I don't see much future for optical viewfinders.

Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbazz wrote:
Of course, manufacturers of SLR cameras are working hard to try to convince people that the optical viewfinder has magical qualities that make it the only viable solution for serious photographers.

I don't think so.
Manufacturers would be happy to get rid of the mirror.
It is the users that are still not convinced that the eVF is better or at least equal to the oVF.
One disadvantage of an eVF will always be its battery consumption.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
blende8 wrote:
Abbazz wrote:
Of course, manufacturers of SLR cameras are working hard to try to convince people that the optical viewfinder has magical qualities that make it the only viable solution for serious photographers.

I don't think so.
Manufacturers would be happy to get rid of the mirror.
It is the users that are still not convinced that the eVF is better or at least equal to the oVF.
One disadvantage of an eVF will always be its battery consumption.


You may be right, but I agree with Abbazz, the electronic viewfinder is a stupendous leap forward for photographers who want to see the impact of their ev adjustments and fine focus control in the viewfinder - live as it happens.
Batteries are getting better and better and cheaper and cheaper - a small price to pay for the convenience of the electronic viewfinders advantages - for me at least
OH


PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
well, I agree with everything you wrote Abbazz, possibly minus our expectations how big or small the Pentax FF will be. I believe that Pentax FF + 43ltd. will be, despite the much longer register distance, shorter than the A7 + FE55, whole package should be heavier though, even though I expect the Pentax FF to be smaller than comparable Canikons I don't think it will be much lighter.

Specially I agree with the big advantages and added possibilities of both the short register distance and an EVF. It's great to be able to adapt pretty much any lens, most even with an helicoid adapter and the mentioned possibility of AF adapters is not far fetched, after all Sony sells AF adapters for Minolta and Sony A mount and Canon FE lenses. However I also accept if somebody tells me that he prefers an OVF.

Let me add that I am an adamant advocate of an articulating EVF to an extent that I consider continuing with the limitation of an OVF of having to be fixed as a basic design flaw in an EVF. I take it that Sony and others, after initially rather favoring the articulating EVF, and after those have been criticized by users for their looks and / or their conceived and imo much exaggerated weakness of construction / danger to brake, have regressed to offering fixed EVF only because of more ready user acceptance of a design that, as the mock pentaprism of the Sony A7 series, looks like a traditional DLR, or those that have a fixed EVF on the left, top corner, looks something alike a traditional rangefinder camera. I wished that the new technology of the EVF would be embraced fully with all it's advantages and I consider being moveable having major benefits on which I have been expounding on in a good number of threads. Again nothing against offering, for those who don't like the looks or are afraid of an articulating EVF to brake more easily, models with a fixed EVF... too! But because of added functionality and benefits imo the norm should and in the long run will become articulating EVFs


PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
well, I agree with everything you wrote Abbazz, possibly minus our expectations how big or small the Pentax FF will be. I believe that Pentax FF + 43ltd. will be, despite the much longer register distance, shorter than the A7 + FE55, whole package should be heavier though, even though I expect the Pentax FF to be smaller than comparable Canikons I don't think it will be much lighter.

Specially I agree with the big advantages and added possibilities of both the short register distance and an EVF. It's great to be able to adapt pretty much any lens, most even with an helicoid adapter and the mentioned possibility of AF adapters is not far fetched, after all Sony sells AF adapters for Minolta and Sony A mount and Canon FE lenses. However I also accept if somebody tells me that he prefers an OVF.

Yep, that's exactly how I see things. Of course, if there are still people wanting to buy a camera with an OVF, why not built one... After all, there is also a market for vinyl records and I think it's a good thing that these interesting technologies don't sink into oblivion. But it's a pity that Pentax, which is a brand that I admire, is rapidly becoming a brand catering for a niche market of nostalgics of a long gone "golden era".

kuuan wrote:
Let me add that I am an adamant advocate of an articulating EVF to an extent that I consider continuing with the limitation of an OVF of having to be fixed as a basic design flaw in an EVF. I take it that Sony and others, after initially rather favoring the articulating EVF, and after those have been criticized by users for their looks and / or their conceived and imo much exaggerated weakness of construction / danger to brake, have regressed to offering fixed EVF only because of more ready user acceptance of a design that, as the mock pentaprism of the Sony A7 series, looks like a traditional DLR, or those that have a fixed EVF on the left, top corner, looks something alike a traditional rangefinder camera. I wished that the new technology of the EVF would be embraced fully with all it's advantages and I consider being moveable having major benefits on which I have been expounding on in a good number of threads. Again nothing against offering, for those who don't like the looks or are afraid of an articulating EVF to brake more easily, models with a fixed EVF... too! But because of added functionality and benefits imo the norm should and in the long run will become articulating EVFs

Yeah, time for the Digital Revolution! But I swear we won't kill the supporters of the Old Regime! Laughing

In fact, I am still using film sometimes, mostly on medium or large format cameras, because I love to process negatives (you know, the smell of the Hypam fixer during those lonely winter nights...) and also because I still cannot replicate the results with a digital camera. But the frontier is becoming fuzzier everyday and I know I will completely abandon analog photography one day or another. But I am keeping my Asahi Pentax SV (for me, the best M42 camera ever made) and my Asahiflex IIb, because they are beautiful samples of the best of 20th Century's technology. And of course, for actual photography, I'll use my Sony A7 (with Pentax lenses), thank you!


Cheers!

Abbazz


PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbazz wrote:
.. But it's a pity that Pentax, which is a brand that I admire, is rapidly becoming a brand catering for a niche market of nostalgics of a long gone "golden era".


Pentax, when they released their mirrorless with K mount, fell prey to their own legacy, their backwards compatibility to a long line of very good lenses. I remember that the Pentaxforums were full of people who said that they wished that a mirrorless by Pentax must have K mount and surprisingly it did

Abbazz wrote:
..Yeah, time for the Digital Revolution! But I swear we won't kill the supporters of the Old Regime! Laughing

In fact, I am still using film sometimes, mostly on medium or large format cameras, because I love to process negatives (you know, the smell of the Hypam fixer during those lonely winter nights...) and also because I still cannot replicate the results with a digital camera. But the frontier is becoming fuzzier everyday and I know I will completely abandon analog photography one day or another. But I am keeping my Asahi Pentax SV (for me, the best M42 camera ever made) and my Asahiflex IIb, because they are beautiful samples of the best of 20th Century's technology. And of course, for actual photography, I'll use my Sony A7 (with Pentax lenses), thank you!


Cheers!

Abbazz


Some day I want to shoot at least a MF film camera. For mirrorless cameras imo rangefinder lenses make a much better fit than SLR lenses, resp. also halfframe lenses for a mirrorless camera with APS-C sensor. As you know they need a much shorter adapter and usually are much smaller themselves, at least wide to normal lenses, tele rangefinder lenses aren't always smaller and lighter, not even with respective adapters. That's why I have accumulated first 'Pen-F' lenses, later some CV and Canon LTM lenses and I have not been using my 'beloved' Pentax lenses much any more.

'I' exemplify the dilemma for Pentax, if they made a mirrorless with short register distance they could offer an AF adapter for their existing Pentax K mount lenses but they'd also need to produce new, smaller lenses made for shorter register. That might need more resources than they are willing to invest.

Ricoh had issued a mirrorless with short register distance, the Leica M Module with an APS-C sensor optimized for rangefinder lenses. Only non-Ricoh lenses can be used ( besides the discontinued 2.8/28 lens in L mount ) but at least they also could sell their own modules. If it was a non modular camera with Leica M mount there are no lens sales at all.
Still I have had hopes that Ricoh might offer a mirrorless optimized for rangefinder lenses with a FF sensor. Better it had not Leica M mount but a shorter register though, sometimes I choose my Sony over the GXR M only because I might want to close focus my rangefinder lens which the Sony E mount, with use of helicoid adapter, enables.
If it was decisively cheaper than Leica FF cameras, possibly also small, light and well handling as the GXR M, it should be a success.

There is room for more radical new designs of digital cameras for interchangeable lenses
Look at the new Pentax FF. Pentax / Ricoh understands the advantages of the free movement of the electronic display. It's LCD moves, without having to be flipped to the side of the camera, in all directions. Possibly this is a first and a good move. Just that here it is the LCD and combined with an OVF. My ideal would be a moving EVF and I'd do without LCD or just a small one. It would have a high grip with buttons on the top, right part of the camera ( less on the back where they are fine for a camera used with LCD but awkward to reach when using an EVF. ) The EVF would be big and best not only articulating but moving in all directions. Ok, most likely my ideal is a bit far out, just saying..


PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:

Still I have had hopes that Ricoh might offer a mirrorless optimized for rangefinder lenses with a FF sensor. Better it had not Leica M mount but a shorter register though, sometimes I choose my Sony over the GXR M only because I might want to close focus my rangefinder lens which the Sony E mount, with use of helicoid adapter, enables.
If it was decisively cheaper than Leica FF cameras, possibly also small, light and well handling as the GXR M, it should be a success.


You are not alone. Wink
Though I am using distance rings instead if closer focus is required. Leica M mount is also OK for me. However, I would definitely go for any FF version of the GXR-M. I am sharing your view that such a camera would still be a success as presently only Sony and Leitz are sharing this segment with the known limitations.

I would not see any reason to change for a regular DSLR Pentax in FF as I have a FF DSLR anyway where I can use most of the Pentax lenses (if required). That comes definitely far too late for me. Unfortunately.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
right Thomas, of course distance rings give close focusing, but only while the helicoid adapter also allows for infinity focus and can remain mounted always.

some pics of the new Pentax
the LCD that moves in all directions



the dials and wheels


looks like it has 3 wheels, one could have one wheel selecting aperture, one shutter speed and one ISO. Pentax' TAV mode went in that direction, now finally emancipating ISO fully. Looks like it's the dial next to the 3rd wheel selects what one can choose with that 3rd wheel.

photos taken from: http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/306468-shots-screen-dials-new-ff-pentax.html


PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
right Thomas, of course distance rings give close focusing, but only while the helicoid adapter also allows for infinity focus and can remain mounted always.


OK, for that I have the Visoflex helicoid to use the lens heads of the 90 and 135 Leica lenses for macro and infinity simultaneous. For other focus lengths I have to struggle with the rings... Wink That's more or less the only disadvantage if we talk about RF-lenses: The rather long MFD compared to some SLR-lenses, especially at shorter FL's .


PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'll give it a year or so then buy one. Been waiting to either get one of these or the price for the 645D to drop enough to get one. I have so many lens for FF that getting new ones is not an issue. It will make a great companion to my K10 and K7.
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