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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
This whole "need" for smaller and smaller cameras that become progressively awkwarder and more inefficient to operate with a normal sized man's hands completely escapes me Confused Rolling Eyes


+10

This Oly is approaching an ergonomic nightmare, button-wise. I count three buttons on the top right close to the shutter release, that's probably going to be a pain.



PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Orio wrote:
This whole "need" for smaller and smaller cameras that become progressively awkwarder and more inefficient to operate with a normal sized man's hands completely escapes me Confused Rolling Eyes


+10

This Oly is approaching an ergonomic nightmare, button-wise. I count three buttons on the top right close to the shutter release, that's probably going to be a pain.



That's the E-M5.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lol, shows how confusing these Oly camera names are.

New one doesn't look any less cluttered:



PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, to each their own. I prefer more buttons to the lack of them, but I've never used this new camera to have an opinion how it is ergonomically.

This idea that an m4/3 sensor somehow is sooooooo limiting, is coming from the very distant past. I have a E-PL1 with an old as heck sensor that is objectively speaking not very good, yet most of the time I prefer its output to NEX (with notable exception of poor dynamic range). Latest generation m4/3 sensors solve this problem completely. So for someone who is not obsessed with shallow DOF, those newer m4/3 cameras are as good as anything APS-C and FF. Yes there is an issue that it's not IQ and cost effective to cover wider end of m4/3 with legacies, I can understand that.

The big thing is PDAF on sensor, which theoretically should enable full use of Pro grade 4/3 lenses on m4/3 bodies. One could use them before as well, but with a painfully slow AF. 4/3 shooters have been campaigning for such a camera for a long time, now they have it. As to whether it would be tempting as a Pro tool, I have my doubts. My guess is that overwhelming majority of 4/3 pro shooters have jumped the ship by now. Taking into account weather sealing and access to some very fine glass in 4/3 and m4/3 mounts, not to mention almost all legacies ever made, this should be one heck of a camera for an advanced amateur, probably simply unmatched for travel and adventure.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fermy wrote:
As to whether it would be tempting as a Pro tool, I have my doubts. My guess is that overwhelming majority of 4/3 pro shooters have jumped the ship by now. Taking into account weather sealing and access to some very fine glass in 4/3 and m4/3 mounts, not to mention almost all legacies ever made, this should be one heck of a camera for an advanced amateur, probably simply unmatched for travel and adventure.

Oly PRO line of lenses for m43 will be sweet , 12-40mm/2.8 and 40mm-150mm/2.8 already announced plus wide angle zoom and super tele prime in the works


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fermy wrote:
newer m4/3 cameras are as good as anything APS-C and FF.


Why do you say that? I just can't see the rationale behind that but maybe you know something I don't. Smile


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
fermy wrote:
newer m4/3 cameras are as good as anything APS-C and FF.


Why do you say that? I just can't see the rationale behind that but maybe you know something I don't. Smile


The rationale is very simple: the output is very good and not lacking in any respect. Just compare what WolverineX and Nordentro are posting with what is posted from large sensor cameras.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fermy wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
fermy wrote:
newer m4/3 cameras are as good as anything APS-C and FF.


Why do you say that? I just can't see the rationale behind that but maybe you know something I don't. Smile


The rationale is very simple: the output is very good and not lacking in any respect. Just compare what WolverineX and Nordentro are posting with what is posted from large sensor cameras.


I agree that the output is very good, but does it match a current APS-C or FF camera? I don't think so, especially with distant shots. I'd have to see some RAWs to be sure though. Certainly the older 12mp M4/3 sensors were noticeably less good than their contemporary larger rivals and I don't see any reason for that situation to have changed. I know Panasonic have made great strides with the M4/3 sensors, but so have the other makers with their sensors too. I just don't see how the disadvantages of a smaller sensor can be overcome if the larger sensors have equally good technology; the smaller sensor is always going to have inferior dynamic range, fine detail and noise if the larger sensor has equally good technology.

If you look at dxomark results, the OM-D doesn't quite equal the performance of the one year older NEX-7, which is quite impressive imho, that the smaller sensor can nearly reach the level of the larger Sony. However, if you compare the OM-D to a bang upto date APS-C sensor like the Nikon D7100, it loses by a fair margin. Although the Nikon is 300 USD more expensive, and 250g heavier, so the Oly has it's advantages.

I'm keeping a keen eye on the latest developments in sensors because it's reaching the time where I feel like upgrading from my NEX-3, but for me to do so, I have to get a sizeable increase in IQ over the old 14.2mp sensor in my NEX and I haven't seen anything that offers enough of an advantage at a price point I could afford yet.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
...

At the end of the day, all the modern cameras are good and create good images in the right hands, so let's not get carried away with bashing any in particular.
yet you cannot resist to bash m43 because it has "small" sensor Rolling Eyes


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
berraneck wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
...

At the end of the day, all the modern cameras are good and create good images in the right hands, so let's not get carried away with bashing any in particular.
yet you cannot resist to bash m43 because it has "small" sensor Rolling Eyes


I'm sorry, but you clearly don't understand the term 'bash'. Bash would be to criticise without justification, which I haven't done.

Anyways, I'm not getting into arguments, so please don't try to start one. Let's stick to sensible discussion of the pros and cons.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
well, I fully understand what "bash" means and yes, imho you are criticising any m43 camera because m43 format just doesn't fit your priorities - how does it relate to pros/cons of this particular camera? everyone around knows about pros and cons of m43.. I was just hoping that reading this thread would give me some more information about new m43 camera, instead it's discussion about how m43 is wrong Sad

Last edited by berraneck on Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I don't agree, there has been discussion of other aspects of the camera. Also, I'm not saying M4/3 is 'wrong' so please don't try to put words in my mouth. The sensor is the core of the camera so it directly relates to the pros and cons.

If you want to discuss the camera, then why don't you post about the camera instead of attacking me? I'd be more than happy to discuss the camera, conversely, I wouldn't be at all interested in arguing.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
well berraneck, welcome to 'club frustration' here at mf lens forum. the discussion did start out as you say, and could have been more informative had it not been hijacked once again so that one member can hear himself talk, repetitively ad nauseum. in fact its even worse than you say because the OP made it a point very early in the discussion to say that he personally had both an m4/3 and apsc system, and on the basis of his personal experience could not see a meaningful IQ difference!

but of what value is personal experience when one has an opinion based on under-sampled web pictures? and certainly that non user opinion cannot just be expressed once so that the thread can revert to its original purpose, and an actual exchange of meaningful information take place. oh no! the opinion must be expressed over and over again until the thread is now about the non users opinion, and not about the OT. and that is in fact the result these kinds of people want--not an exchange of information useful to all but to have every thread be about their opinions.

it happens far too often here, and its a very unfortunate trend for an otherwise lovely and useful forum. i do wish the moderators would step in and admonish this behavior...


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell wrote:
well berraneck, welcome to 'club frustration' here at mf lens forum. the discussion did start out as you say, and could have been more informative had it not been hijacked once again so that one member can hear himself talk, repetitively ad nauseum. in fact its even worse than you say because the OP made it a point very early in the discussion to say that he personally had both an m4/3 and apsc system, and on the basis of his personal experience could not see a meaningful IQ difference!

but of what value is personal experience when one has an opinion based on under-sampled web pictures? and certainly that non user opinion cannot just be expressed once so that the thread can revert to its original purpose, and an actual exchange of meaningful information take place. oh no! the opinion must be expressed over and over again until the thread is now about the non users opinion, and not about the OT. and that is in fact the result these kinds of people want--not an exchange of information useful to all but to have every thread be about their opinions.

it happens far too often here, and its a very unfortunate trend for an otherwise lovely and useful forum. i do wish the moderators would step in and admonish this behavior...


+1000001

What we should be talking about is how this new camera is good news for m43 users who like to use manual focus:
- The improved electronic viewfinder (same as VF-4) sounds great.
- The bigger grip looks comfy (there seems to have been a trend a while back of reducing grip sizes, Panasonic G3, Oly E-M5).

Downsides are:
- No focus peaking with legacy lenses =( according to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESOj56fWB8Q
Hopefully they can change that in firmware if enough people ask them / complain, as they did with IBIS in video for legacy lenses on E-M5.

Now that there is PDAF on sensor I would have liked to have seen a split-focus aid like the X100s has.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell wrote:
well berraneck, welcome to 'club frustration' here at mf lens forum. the discussion did start out as you say, and could have been more informative had it not been hijacked once again so that one member can hear himself talk, repetitively ad nauseum. in fact its even worse than you say because the OP made it a point very early in the discussion to say that he personally had both an m4/3 and apsc system, and on the basis of his personal experience could not see a meaningful IQ difference!

but of what value is personal experience when one has an opinion based on under-sampled web pictures? and certainly that non user opinion cannot just be expressed once so that the thread can revert to its original purpose, and an actual exchange of meaningful information take place. oh no! the opinion must be expressed over and over again until the thread is now about the non users opinion, and not about the OT. and that is in fact the result these kinds of people want--not an exchange of information useful to all but to have every thread be about their opinions.

it happens far too often here, and its a very unfortunate trend for an otherwise lovely and useful forum. i do wish the moderators would step in and admonish this behavior...


Tony I am sure that you too have been active here and in other forums long enough to avoid confrontation whenever possible because usually it is fruitless and plain stupid, and I believe that this is the sole reason why your point has not been made clear enough more often. I congratulate you for your post and the point you make, which is, though somewhat painful, an important one to make for the sake of the theme. Hopefully it helps to raise awareness that personal preferences are valid and justified but never an argument to belittle other equipment which might just be the perfect choice for another photographer.

regardless if it pushes my buttons or not, great to see that Olympus is evolving their flag ship offering, looks like very well done, way to go, Olympus!

Last edited by kuuan on Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
So it's weatherproof, go a bigger EVF, a faster AF system and there's a new range of pro lenses.

However, it's still a 16mp 4/3 sensor, so I'm highly dubious it can come close to a FF camera.

It does look like a nice camera indeed, but the most important bit - the sensor, looks very sub-standard compared to the 24 and 36mp Nikon FF. It's got a quarter of the sensor area and that makes a big difference in several key regards.

I'm sure it will be a very good camera capable of excellent images. But I just don't see it appealing to pros. I can't see any advantage this camera has over the competition in the pro sector, other than smaller size and smaller price tag and those are not factors that will matter to most pros I think.


Its no use arguing sensor size with 4/3 sensor lovers ,they belive (yes it does seem so)even if the same company produced both aps-c and 4/3 sensor both will be the same!!!!hell 4/3 would be better!!!! No need to get extralight!!! Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
regardless if it pushes my buttons or not, great to see that Olympus is evolving their flag ship offering, looks like very well done, way to go, Olympus!


+1000:
Every new good piece of gear is good news, even if I don't like it or think the price os not good, both because it can be the perfect addition to someone else's gear and because of its impact on the market (I.e. other brands need to face it -> new gear -> lower prices for old gear).
Regarding if a camera is suitable or no for pros, I guess it depends on the pro: many are wedding shooters that use FF canikons with fast zooms, but I'm seeing always more often guys shooting with high end aps-c cameras: the latest Nikon aps-c have stunning sensors and I guess I wouldn't automatically recognize pics shot with those from the ones of a d800, once properly PP'ed and printed - that is what wedding photos are going to end. So I wouldn't be surprised if a new high end m4/3 would be just as good, if given an excellent lens designed for its sensor.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's so underwhelming that someone sees my points as 'bashing' while they keep doing that. The people who are saying that m4/3 has indeed better quality than NEX have seen it with their very eyes. And that's what I call very rational. Rather speaking from paper spec (size sensor factor) without even testing out or seeing some valid comparison. I find it irrational. I think a lot times reality is far different from paper specs. That's why probably I love 12MP 5DC quality over 6D after testing out both last week.

@rbelyell

People don't seem to care about personal experience rather technical spec. Which doesn't represent everything.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am curious how does it compare and how does improves over the OM-D


PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would surely appreciate to try this new Olympus OM-D EM1.

I have a full frame camera, Canon 5D MkII.
My daughter has a APS-C, Canon 60D.
I bought an Olympus Pen E-P2 with external viewfinder.

At the beginning, I was confused with the m4/3 format which makes a 50mm a 100mm eq FF.
But now, I enjoy the Pen E-P2 very much in complement with the 5D MkII.
I like its size, the internal stabilisation, and take photographies I don't with the 5D. Some reasons about that : its size makes it more discreet for street photos, I make more "point and shoot" with it, I frame differently because of 4/3 format.
My daughter too likes to take it sometimes, especially in town, and I notice she has a different eye with it than with her 60D. I don't say better, I just say different.

Quality in comparison with 5D MkII ?
Well, in fact both give me files sufficiently good to print them on A3 and expose them. Smile

So, yes, I'm glad that Olympus made this new OM-D EM1.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
mzzyhmd wrote:
That's so underwhelming that someone sees my points as 'bashing' while they keep doing that. The people who are saying that m4/3 has indeed better quality than NEX have seen it with their very eyes. And that's what I call very rational. Rather speaking from paper spec (size sensor factor) without even testing out or seeing some valid comparison. I find it irrational. I think a lot times reality is far different from paper specs. That's why probably I love 12MP 5DC quality over 6D after testing out both last week.

@rbelyell

People don't seem to care about personal experience rather technical spec. Which doesn't represent everything.


Off topic, but out of interest, why do you prefer the 5D over the 6D? I have the 6D find it a way better camera to use.

Kind of on topic ( Laughing ) I just bought a tiny Oly Pen E-pm1 with kit lens for £150.00 refurbished. It's exptremely simple, but is very handy to carry around Smile Makes a lovely portrait machine with the Jupiter-8. IQ is OK up to ISO 800, and ISO 1600 is fine with PP. Overall it's miles away from my 6D in every way, but good fun and very handy!



I'm not sure about the new top of the range model for my needs, but I do appreciate that some photographers want lots of function with smaller size. My late grandfather (a long time pro) bought a Nikon D90 over a D300 for exactly that reason.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1. 5D is so simple which I love the most. I don't need to spend zillion hours on reading the manual and get the hang of it like 6D

2. 5D's color rendition has sort of vintage look that is attractive to my eyes

3. 5D's mechanical shutter speed 1/8000 I love that to shoot WO at day. But at night 6D can't be beaten undoubtedly!


PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell wrote:
well berraneck, welcome to 'club frustration' here at mf lens forum. the discussion did start out as you say, and could have been more informative had it not been hijacked once again so that one member can hear himself talk, repetitively ad nauseum. in fact its even worse than you say because the OP made it a point very early in the discussion to say that he personally had both an m4/3 and apsc system, and on the basis of his personal experience could not see a meaningful IQ difference!


I've seen it so many times here:

"FF has better IQ than u4/3, it's a fact, it's proven. Therefore thou shall use... APS-C".

There are too few peoples like Orio: he personally can't stand u4/3 but he just abstain from the discussing u4/3 instead bashing it. Very unlike some ppls in this thread, sprouting out opinions as facts.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
To inform you guys everybody has opinion and everybody have right to explain it and for past hurt don't need to abuse repeated each other , Tony I tell this to you. I have had also m4/3 and APS-C , m4/3 , 4/3 in my opinion step back vs APS-C, Samsung NX and SONY NEX. Difference is visible on pictures where is no PP did apply , even with PP my Panasonic G1 poor performer vs Sony NEX. Nordentro is most obvious m4/3 user who can show outstanding images from his later advanced cameras what is suggest m4/3 can be equal or better than APS-C cameras.
Finally, no matter really as I did start to say everybody has right to explain his self accept or not accept other opinions important only do it polite, at this time Tony you weren't please don't do it again.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
attila, you are a good friend, and what you do running this forum is magnificent, and ive supported it not only with words, but with modest monetary contributions as well. however, i respectfully disagree with you here. we are all entitled to express an opinion, but not to express it repetitvely within a thread intended by the OP for another purpose. beating people over the head is not expressing an opinion, it is 'hijacking', and it is disrespctful to the OP, and it does not serve what i think is the goal of this forum: to promote discussion and exchange of ideas. it changes the focus from what the OP wants to discuss, and what many others agree to discuss, and reroutes the topic to what the hijacker wants to talk about, which is the hijackers opinion. and moreover, if one reads the posts, these 'opinions' are not expressed moderately but rather as 'fact', not something to be disagreed with.

if you review this thread, several respected and longtime forum members seem to agree with the point of my post. some of them are moderators here. i respectfully disagree also that i was impolite, in that nothing i said was inaccurate, and therefore i feel i have nothing to apologize for or feel badly about. i respecfully suggest that perhaps a reassessment can take place and perhaps other opinions you respect be sought out. i am a longtime member here and i can say without hesitation that the forums tone has changed because the problem i discussed in my post is increasingly more and more inhibiting of discussion. its not the first time its happened, but more like the 50th, and its tiresome to an 'oldtimer' like me, who remembers better days. f you no longer want me to be a part of this forum, that is your choice and certainly i will respect it. but this problem will be here regardless of my presence.
your friend
tony

Last edited by rbelyell on Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:50 am; edited 2 times in total
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