Home

Please support mflenses.com if you need any graphic related work order it from us, click on above banner to order!
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist RegisterRegister ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in

My Macro Rig
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: My Macro Rig Reply with quote
I finally assembled my macro rig, which consists of:

2 M42 Extension tubes
Asahi Pentax Bellows (2.2:1 magnification fully extended with 50mm lens)
Asahi Macro Takumar 50/4 (with 1:2)

In addition: i also have set of close up lenses, which i found to be pretty useless.

Fully extended, i get some pretty extreme and impressive magnifications (with enough working distance between the lens and subject), but there are few problems:
a) the light amount that is lost is quite unbearable and commands long exposure shots. (got me thinking about getting continuous LED ring light - any recommendations are welcome).
b) DOF is extremely shallow even at F22. (have no idea how to increase dof while retaining magnification).
c) need better, and very stable stand - perhaps with focus adjustment rail? I know my current mini tripod is quite cheap. Very Happy

I assume these problems are common for extreme macro photographers. But i am curious how you guys tackle them, and perhaps share your macro rig - so i can get some more ideas?

P.S. I also intend to get even bigger magnification (if possible) - perhaps by reversing macro tak will help???
P.S.2 - pardon for image quality (taken with iphune).v Smile


[/img]


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My macro rails are also a slide copier (google BPM universal bellows - they are not too expensive), and the rails extend out the front. You can use clothes pegs or similar to attach small objects to the rails and then everything is locked together and you can just put the whole thing on the table or wherever. No movement even with long exposures.

Probably worth reversing the lens as they tend to be designed to have the bigger thing (ie the world outside) in front of the lens and the smaller thing (the sensor) behind, and in extreme macro you are reversing this ratio. Excuse my highly scientific explanation Wink


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice rig: being so long you would probably need a more stable base in some situations, but that looks good as it seems not too bulky.
As for the DOF, I'm afraid you have no solutions except focus staking.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is my simple portable macro rig used to produce pictures for few scientific publications and databases:



Modified Contax macro bellows with 35mm Tominon lens attached and micrometer stage. I have since upgraded the camera and the micrometer stage. Works nice with 10x microscope objective. The picture in the background is a test shot of the insect specimen (not the one that was on the stage when the picture was taken).


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alex H wrote:
Here is my simple portable macro rig used to produce pictures for few scientific publications and databases:


Modified Contax macro bellows with 35mm Tominon lens attached and micrometer stage. I have since upgraded the camera and the micrometer stage. Works nice with 10x microscope objective. The picture in the background is a test shot of the insect specimen (not the one that was on the stage when the picture was taken).


this is pretty nice. i like the base-plate, stage and use of microscopic lens. how did you manage to get that bee remain still?

Aanything wrote:
Nice rig: being so long you would probably need a more stable base in some situations, but that looks good as it seems not too bulky.
As for the DOF, I'm afraid you have no solutions except focus staking.


Thanks.

For DOF, i was thinking about putting black paper with center drilled tiny hole on filter ring, and screwing that onto lens once in focus - and maybe getting at around f32? but in any case, i do need a solid base plate and good source of light.

Was thinking about getting this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/839004-REG/Stellar_Lighting_Systems_STL_80R_FLASH_STL_80R_Ringlight_LED_Flash.html


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Basilisk wrote:
My macro rails are also a slide copier (google BPM universal bellows - they are not too expensive), and the rails extend out the front. You can use clothes pegs or similar to attach small objects to the rails and then everything is locked together and you can just put the whole thing on the table or wherever. No movement even with long exposures.

Probably worth reversing the lens as they tend to be designed to have the bigger thing (ie the world outside) in front of the lens and the smaller thing (the sensor) behind, and in extreme macro you are reversing this ratio. Excuse my highly scientific explanation Wink


Yup, just ordered reverse adapter for m42. Can you post a picture of you rig? Curious to see use of clothes pegs in your setup Smile


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jvg wrote:
how did you manage to get that bee remain still?


The bee deceased from natural causes.

Besides, I work at the Natural History Museum


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice looking macro rig Alex. Tell me you don`t use the inbuilt flash with that rig.
Is that a Newport stage?


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alex H wrote:
Here is my simple portable macro rig used to produce pictures for few scientific publications and databases:



Modified Contax macro bellows with 35mm Tominon lens attached and micrometer stage. I have since upgraded the camera and the micrometer stage. Works nice with 10x microscope objective. The picture in the background is a test shot of the insect specimen (not the one that was on the stage when the picture was taken).


I have the same bellows / rail setup with the Unitor name on it, and Minolta as it has the lens and camera mounts for Minolta MD. I suspect Unitor made them and badged them fof the camera companies to sell as a branded accessory? I have seen them branded as Unitor / Canon and Unitor / Olympus, so it's likely there are others.
Whatever, they are very good and extremelly well made bellows units.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lloydy wrote:
Alex H wrote:
Here is my simple portable macro rig used to produce pictures for few scientific publications and databases:



Modified Contax macro bellows with 35mm Tominon lens attached and micrometer stage. I have since upgraded the camera and the micrometer stage. Works nice with 10x microscope objective. The picture in the background is a test shot of the insect specimen (not the one that was on the stage when the picture was taken).


I have the same bellows / rail setup with the Unitor name on it, and Minolta as it has the lens and camera mounts for Minolta MD. I suspect Unitor made them and badged them fof the camera companies to sell as a branded accessory? I have seen them branded as Unitor / Canon and Unitor / Olympus, so it's likely there are others.
Whatever, they are very good and extremelly well made bellows units.


Not sure what to reply. My bellows are branded Contax and are tilt-shift auto-bellows.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The tubes looks a bit fiddly and like they would help introduce image shake into the exposure.

Here are somethings that can help:

1- If you're using film, use the slowest film you can find. Faster films have thicker emulsions so the image quality diminishes slightly (plus they have a lower resolution to begin with.)
2- If you're using a tabletop, you can keep throwing light at your subject until there's enough to use. The law of inverse square can help you understand how much light is lost exactly and how much is needed to make up for it.
3- For stability, if you aren't going to move your camera, you can make an incredibly stable copy stand for it for cheap (free if you have a good CraigsList community in your area and wait w hile to find free wood listed.) Here's the one I made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dME0arCN6Ro
4- If you're mobile, a better tripod is a must. OR get a couple of okay tripods and mount one to your camera and one to your bellows. That would give you very good stability.
5- For DoF, it's going to be shallow. The only way to increase DoF with magnification like that is through movements. With your setup, that's not possible, so you need to move the subject. If you have stationary subjects like coins or such, you can make a tilting macro base (sorry, I don't have a video for that just yet.) By tilting and moving the subject you can align it to the lens' focal plane and get more of it into focus. Alternately, you could pick up and modify a 4X5 monorail camera and turn it into a very extreme macro bellows with ridiculous movements. Check out the Calumet CC-400 or 402 (I think that's the 22-inch model) for starters. You'd need custom plates made, but those aren't too difficult if there's a good hardware store nearby.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Re DoF and all that, Jvg, at 2.2:1 your effective aperture is nominal aperture (what the aperture control ring indicates) * 3.2. The magic formula is effective aperture = nominal aperture * (1 + magnification).

At 2.2:1 f/22 nominal = f/70.4 effective. The best resolution you can get in the center of the field is ~ 1500/70 = 21 lp/mm, the diffraction limit. The best possible off-axis is lower, and the farther off-axis the lower the best possible will be.

20 lp/mm is somewhat limiting, will allow only around 2.5x enlargement of the original image before it will start looking soft at normal viewing distances. And that's in the center; off-axis it will support less enlargement.

Stopping down farther will only make things worse. You're near, if not already at, the point at which stopping down reduces depth of field. To learn more about this and for sample photographs showing depth of field shrinking as the lens is stopped down, see Gibson, H. Lou. Close-Up Photography and Photomacrography. 1970. Publication N-16. Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY. 98+95+6 pp. The two sections were published separately as Kodak Publications N-12A and N-12B respectively. Republished in 1977 with changes and without the 6 page analytic supplement, which was published separately as Kodak Publication N-15. 1977 edition is ISBN 0-87985-206-2.

This is the most frightening book on photography I have ever read.

By the way, for best results when working above 1:1 you should reverse the lens. It isn't clear that you've done that.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
danfromm wrote:
Gibson, H. Lou. Close-Up Photography and Photomacrography. 1970. Publication N-16. Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY. 98+95+6 pp. The two sections were published separately as Kodak Publications N-12A and N-12B respectively. Republished in 1977 with changes and without the 6 page analytic supplement, which was published separately as Kodak Publication N-15. 1977 edition is ISBN 0-87985-206-2.

This is the most frightening book on photography I have ever read.

Awesome description.... Makes me want to run out and NOT buy one.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
danfromm wrote:
Gibson, H. Lou. Close-Up Photography and Photomacrography. 1970. Publication N-16. Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY. 98+95+6 pp. The two sections were published separately as Kodak Publications N-12A and N-12B respectively. Republished in 1977 with changes and without the 6 page analytic supplement, which was published separately as Kodak Publication N-15. 1977 edition is ISBN 0-87985-206-2.

This is the most frightening book on photography I have ever read.

Awesome description.... Makes me want to run out and NOT buy one.


Reality has that effect on many people. But if you're doing high magnification photography its much better to understand what you're doing, even though the news is that much of what you'd like to do is impossible.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
But what do you do with focus distance? I mean, when i use just one whole 70mm macro tubes set with my vega-11u, i have only 3-5cm from lens to object... How to extend it with same magnification? Confused


PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A useful magic formula: front node to subject distance = focal length * (magnification + 1)/magnification

If you want more working distance, use a longer lens.

But remember, working distance isn't free. Buying it costs extension.

Another useful magic formula: rear node to subject distance = focal length * (magnification + 1)


PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
David wrote:
The tubes looks a bit fiddly and like they would help introduce image shake into the exposure.


Actually tubes and bellows are firm & solid. the only fiddly part in the rig - is a tripod. But, i'll address that by making the entire unit stationary - convert it to table top setup.



David wrote:
1- If you're using film, use the slowest film you can find. Faster films have thicker emulsions so the image quality diminishes slightly (plus they have a lower resolution to begin with.)


for macro, i shoot digital. film is for outdoors, portraits and general photography.

David wrote:
2- If you're using a tabletop, you can keep throwing light at your subject until there's enough to use. The law of inverse square can help you understand how much light is lost exactly and how much is needed to make up for it.


yup, just saw few other samples of extreme macro rigs that gave me an idea of mounting external flashes with softboxes to brackets. should give better lighting than continuous LED.

David wrote:
3- For stability, if you aren't going to move your camera, you can make an incredibly stable copy stand for it for cheap (free if you have a good CraigsList community in your area and wait w hile to find free wood listed.) Here's the one I made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dME0arCN6Ro


thanks for vid, Wink will come in handy when i start constructing more stable base.


David wrote:
4- If you're mobile, a better tripod is a must. OR get a couple of okay tripods and mount one to your camera and one to your bellows. That would give you very good stability.


i do have better tripod and a monopod but they're big, bulky and useless for macro.


David wrote:
5- For DoF, it's going to be shallow. The only way to increase DoF with magnification like that is through movements. With your setup, that's not possible, so you need to move the subject. If you have stationary subjects like coins or such, you can make a tilting macro base (sorry, I don't have a video for that just yet.) By tilting and moving the subject you can align it to the lens' focal plane and get more of it into focus. Alternately, you could pick up and modify a 4X5 monorail camera and turn it into a very extreme macro bellows with ridiculous movements. Check out the Calumet CC-400 or 402 (I think that's the 22-inch model) for starters. You'd need custom plates made, but those aren't too difficult if there's a good hardware store nearby.


interesting. i'll look into it. and thanks for all the advice Wink


PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
danfromm wrote:
Re DoF and all that, Jvg, at 2.2:1 your effective aperture is nominal aperture (what the aperture control ring indicates) * 3.2. The magic formula is effective aperture = nominal aperture * (1 + magnification).

At 2.2:1 f/22 nominal = f/70.4 effective. The best resolution you can get in the center of the field is ~ 1500/70 = 21 lp/mm, the diffraction limit. The best possible off-axis is lower, and the farther off-axis the lower the best possible will be.

20 lp/mm is somewhat limiting, will allow only around 2.5x enlargement of the original image before it will start looking soft at normal viewing distances. And that's in the center; off-axis it will support less enlargement.

Stopping down farther will only make things worse. You're near, if not already at, the point at which stopping down reduces depth of field. To learn more about this and for sample photographs showing depth of field shrinking as the lens is stopped down, see Gibson, H. Lou. Close-Up Photography and Photomacrography. 1970. Publication N-16. Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY. 98+95+6 pp. The two sections were published separately as Kodak Publications N-12A and N-12B respectively. Republished in 1977 with changes and without the 6 page analytic supplement, which was published separately as Kodak Publication N-15. 1977 edition is ISBN 0-87985-206-2.

This is the most frightening book on photography I have ever read.

By the way, for best results when working above 1:1 you should reverse the lens. It isn't clear that you've done that.


that's a lot of info to digest Very Happy ha ha.
with my current setup, i know for sure i'm way beyond 2.2:1, somewhere around 7:1 or even 8:1 (roughly picture of 3mm screw head fills up the 23.4mm sensor plane on my nex 5). with that being said, actual aperture is also way beyond f/70.

i've not reversed the lens yet. but i did attach 2x teleconverter to get that extra working distance.

btw, do you have links to those publications?


PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jvg wrote:

btw, do you have links to those publications?


As far as I know they're available only as printed books. N-15 is hardcover, N-12A and -B are in softcover. On-line booksellers who can be found through, in alphabetical order, abebooks.com, alibris.com, amazon.com, ... will have them.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Himself wrote:
Nice looking macro rig Alex. Tell me you don`t use the inbuilt flash with that rig.
Is that a Newport stage?


Sorry, I missed this question. The built-in flash was used to trigger the other flash remotely, and, yes, that is a Newport stage.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I got all adapters needed for the macro rig.
Just a question if I understand the magnification correctly:

If I use a 35mm (Aetna Coliga f3.5), with bellow and extension tube,
The total length of bellow and tubes from lens mount to sensor plan is 250mm,
The subject is about 30mm from the front element,

will the magnification be 34:1 based on the calculator in the link below?

http://www.mystd.de/album/calculator/

Thanks.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hoanpham wrote:
If I use a 35mm (Aetna Coliga f3.5), with bellow and extension tube,
The total length of bellow and tubes from lens mount to sensor plan is 250mm,
The subject is about 30mm from the front element,

will the magnification be 34:1 based on the calculator in the link below?


No. Distances are measured from the lens' rear node to the image plane and from the lens' front node to the subject. For lenses of normal construction -- neither telephoto nor retrofocus -- the lens' nodes are both very near the diaphragm. You are measuring from the wrong places.

The magic formulas you need to internalize are:

Image plane to rear node distance = focal length * (M + 1) where M is magnification (= size of image/size of subject), whence

M = ((image plane to rear node distance)/(focal length)) -1. I don't know your lens' dimensions, but it can't be very thick so magnification (= size of image/size of subject) has to be on the order of 6 - 7. (250/35) - 1 = 7.14

If you want to shoot at 34:1, extension will have to be 35 * (34 + 1) = 1225 mm

Front node to subject distance = focal length * (M + 1)/M from which you can see that the smallest possible front node to subject distance is the focal length, at infinite magnification.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you. I will do some more test, but your formula is very helpful.

So if i want to reduce the length of the bellow/tubes, i need wide angle lens to maintain maximum magnification.
Can all type of wide angle lenses be used?

I also tried reversed using a 28mm on 50mm tube. Is there a formula for reversed lens as well?

Thank you.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The same formulas work. But understand that reversing the lens reverses the nodes.

Save yourself pain, buy a copy of Lester Lefkowitz' book The Manual of Closeup Photography, available used from on-line booksellers who can be found through, in alphabetical order, abebooks.com, alibris.com, amazon.com, ... After the book arrives, read it.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
One way to make the setup a bit more compact, and possibly improve on image quality, is to "stack" lenses. Your 50mm lens will likely give its best performance at higher magnifications mounted in reverse, so rather than mounting on bellows with extreme extension you can mount it on the front of a prime or zoom lens (called a "tube lens" when used this way). Best candidate for tube lens is a long telephoto with tripod mount. The concept is similar to infinite microscope systems, ie you focus the tube lens at infinity, mount the objective lens reversed on the front of tube lens, and place the object approx FL from the front of the objective. The objective is then focused at infinity (but in reverse) and the infinite-focused rays are refocused to the camera by the infinite-focused tube lens. The magnification you get from this system depends on the FL of the tube lens and the objective and is simply FL(tube)/FL(obj). You can immediately see that if you use a zoom lens you can vary the magnification easily while maintaining the same working distance. For example, if you have a 70-210 zoom laying around, you will get 1.4x to 4.2x magnification range with your 50mm. This setup is a lot more compact and probably a lot more rigid versus the super-long bellows arrangement, and you can also add a teleconverter to increase the FL of the tube lens as desired. Very likely the image quality will be superior to the bellows arrangement using the same objective...Ray

PS since reversed lenses all must conform to the same camera register distance, the working distance of all lenses is about the same when reversed (for a given camera mount). So it should seem obvious that shorter FL lenses will have about the same working distance as longer ones for the stacked config. Thus if you are looking for higher magnification, just use a shorter FL lens with the same tube lens. If you have a 24mm lens you can double the magnification of the system I describe above, without losing working distance. This takes advantage of the retrofocus design required of shorter FL lenses to work in a given camera system.
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Techniques
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2