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My little identification discovery: Tomioka myth busted
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've been following this thread with great interest. I have several "generic" M42 50/55mm 1.4 lenses and will dig them out for side by each photos of their physical characteristics. Working from memory... Chinon/Sears 55/1.4 Fujinon 50/1.4, Mamiya/Sekor 55/1.4, Rikenon/Sears 50/1.4 and Yashinon 50/1.4.

Chinon, Cosina and Yashica/Tomioka were all located in Japan's Nagano Prefecture. This leads me to believe there was a lot of cooperation among the three. Chinon originated as a machine shop producing lens barrel components. Cosina's early ventures were in lens making. Tomioka was a long established lens manufacturer. Glass shaping probaly took place at Cosina and Tomioka with assembly using Chinon made components taking place at all three. This is assumption on my part but I see it as the "simple" answer.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
mo wrote:
dimitrygo
I have the Auto Rikenon 1.4/55 (version 2 in your photo set) with the flat rear element and rounded A/M switch the serial number is 110821...just for your info/research my front screw slots align perfectly with the A for Auto and the 1st 1 on the serial number. (I have not opened this lens).


This is an interesting thread but I think the subject is a tough one without a paper trail to back up the similarities...I am curious about such things but would rather enjoy using the lenses Very Happy Good luck in your tracking down of who made what lens.


Thanks, Mo. I think the differences in your copy are pure cosmetic. BTW what do you think about this lens?
An information about actual lens maker is very important because as you see there are several versions of some lenses that were probably made by different makers and even have different optics. So it is not enough anymore to say I have Mamiya or Rikenon lens for example.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have the 1st version Rikenon from your shots with flat ( though slightly raised to the touch which may be confusing )rear element and two copies of the auto mamiya, the early chrome version in your shots with the convex rear element and a later black one ( not sure which from your photos) which has a perfectly flat rear element.

The black one came with a relatively rare Mamiya 2000 DTL camera which according to ron herrons site was introduced at photokina in 1966 and had a relatively limited and short release in 1969. If this is of any help let me know if you want shot of it.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Macca wrote:
I have the 1st version Rikenon from your shots with flat ( though slightly raised to the touch which may be confusing )rear element and two copies of the auto mamiya, the early chrome version in your shots with the convex rear element and a later black one ( not sure which from your photos) which has a perfectly flat rear element.

The black one came with a relatively rare Mamiya 2000 DTL camera which according to ron herrons site was introduced at photokina in 1966 and had a relatively limited and short release in 1969. If this is of any help let me know if you want shot of it.


The best way IMHO to match your black Mamiya to a lenses in my gallery is to look on the rear element "crown". If your lens doesn't match any lens in the gallery I will be thankful for its pictures. And if your Mamiya with convex rear element has its plastic cover on A/M switch I would be glad to get its pictures as well.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
To be honest I have never fully tested this Rikenon lens...I have tried a few night shots and that was it. Embarassed I might as well drag it out over the Christmas break, as I want to try and capture some night time Christmas lights and town images.

I have a few other Rikenons that I like, I hope it performs as well as they do.

What price would you put on a Mamiya 1.4 lens? I have seen a few on Oz ebay but have baulked at the price tag.I do like Mamiya and I know they are a great lens.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
mo wrote:
To be honest I have never fully tested this Rikenon lens...I have tried a few night shots and that was it. Embarassed I might as well drag it out over the Christmas break, as I want to try and capture some night time Christmas lights and town images.

I have a few other Rikenons that I like, I hope it performs as well as they do.

What price would you put on a Mamiya 1.4 lens? I have seen a few on Oz ebay but have baulked at the price tag.I do like Mamiya and I know they are a great lens.


All prices today went crazy. Also depends on version it could be identical or very very close to your Rikenon. If you still want to buy Mamiya try to look for Mamiya bodies that come together with lenses, this way you can buy it cheaper, at least this was true in the past.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks,they don't turn up to often down here...I will have to keep watching and waiting . Very Happy


PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo wrote:
Macca wrote:
I have the 1st version Rikenon from your shots with flat ( though slightly raised to the touch which may be confusing )rear element and two copies of the auto mamiya, the early chrome version in your shots with the convex rear element and a later black one ( not sure which from your photos) which has a perfectly flat rear element.

The black one came with a relatively rare Mamiya 2000 DTL camera which according to ron herrons site was introduced at photokina in 1966 and had a relatively limited and short release in 1969. If this is of any help let me know if you want shot of it.


The best way IMHO to match your black Mamiya to a lenses in my gallery is to look on the rear element "crown". If your lens doesn't match any lens in the gallery I will be thankful for its pictures. And if your Mamiya with convex rear element has its plastic cover on A/M switch I would be glad to get its pictures as well.


Unfortunately I recently lost my plastic switch for the early chrome version, it had a habit of falling off but looked identical to your other early shots.
I am struggling to differentiate the crowns in your shots from the crown on my black one, what should I be looking for to do this?


PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I still have no idea how you are identifying this or that lens as Tomioka or Cosina. I have Auto Rickenon 1.4/55 that looks like this

Here's the link to the original post btw http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=46728&view=next. The rear element is flat, the lens is great, but quite heavy.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Macca wrote:
dimitrygo wrote:
Macca wrote:
I have the 1st version Rikenon from your shots with flat ( though slightly raised to the touch which may be confusing )rear element and two copies of the auto mamiya, the early chrome version in your shots with the convex rear element and a later black one ( not sure which from your photos) which has a perfectly flat rear element.

The black one came with a relatively rare Mamiya 2000 DTL camera which according to ron herrons site was introduced at photokina in 1966 and had a relatively limited and short release in 1969. If this is of any help let me know if you want shot of it.


The best way IMHO to match your black Mamiya to a lenses in my gallery is to look on the rear element "crown". If your lens doesn't match any lens in the gallery I will be thankful for its pictures. And if your Mamiya with convex rear element has its plastic cover on A/M switch I would be glad to get its pictures as well.


Unfortunately I recently lost my plastic switch for the early chrome version, it had a habit of falling off but looked identical to your other early shots.
I am struggling to differentiate the crowns in your shots from the crown on my black one, what should I be looking for to do this?

Did the switch look like this one?


The differences in the crowns are very subtle. For example on the below pictures you can see Revuenon version 5 and black Mamiya version 3:


They have slightly different shapes and on Mamiya the very tip is painted in black paint. I tend to believe the crown on Mamiya version 2 is identical to this Revuenon but of course it's hard to tell for sure based only on pictures.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fermy wrote:
I still have no idea how you are identifying this or that lens as Tomioka or Cosina.

If you ask me I don't claim anything. Some lenses look identical or very close to the lenses marked Cosinon and assuming Cosina made these lenses by itself it's safe to say all these similar lenses were made by Cosina.
The lenses marked Chinon Tomioka and Revuenon Tomioka are obviously made by Tomioka and there are Chinon and Revuenon lenses that don't carry Tomioka name but look identical so for them it's probably safe to say they were made by Tomioka.
For other lenses like Mamiya, Rikenon, Sears it's hard to say. And also it seems there was at least one additional maker beside Cosina and Tomioka.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was asking anyone who feels confident enough to identify the maker, in particular, Pancolart as he started this thread.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fermy wrote:
I was asking anyone who feels confident enough to identify the maker, in particular, Pancolart as he started this thread.


This COSINON Tomioka 1.2/55mm is giving me serious headache:

Topic: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=30307

Did i possibly reaffirm Tomioka myth instead of busting it Embarassed ?


PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't worry about the myth busting, the thread has been useful, it's shown that identifying third party lenses is a minefield and has probably also shown that companies like Sun, Tokina, Cosina and Tomioka probably used the same/similar barrel parts, perhaps from the same supplier.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Myth busted? Maybe. Here's pics of my five M-42 f-1.4 normals. Look them over. From left to right; Chinon 55mm, Fujinon 50mm, Mamiya 55mm, Rikenon 50mm, Yashinon 50mm.


Overall length from mounting face to filter ring; 48.5 mm, 43.7, 44.1, 39.3, 41.7.


Marked minimum focus and measured extension; .5m/8mm, .46/7.3, .5/8.1, .5/7.5, .6/5.4


Rear elements; Chinon and Mamiya, flat. Fujinon and Yashinon, flat or very nearly so. Rikenon, convex.


From the front; Chinon, Fujinon iris tips rearward. Mamiya, Rikenon, Yashnon tips forward.
A - M switch: Chinon at 2:00 o'clock. Fuji, none. Mamiya 7:00, Rikenon, none. Yashinon 7:00.


From the rear; Fujinon is obviously different in construction. Chinon differs from other three. Mamiya, Rikenon and Yashinon are similar but not identical in detail.

To my mind, five lenses made to five different specifications. The Fujinon has no mechanical similarity to the others. The Rikenon is a later 50mm lens from the Auto TLS model and not the usual Singlex 55mm unit. The Mamiya and Chinon are marked as 55mm F.L. and share the flat and protruding rear element but differ significantly in mechanical detail. The Yashinon differs from the others in its close focus limit.

Note that the Yashinon lens is marked 50mm F.L. vs the 55mm F.L. of the Chinon and Mamiya that are usually attributed to Tomioka. Also note that the lenses marked as 55mm require .5mm to .8mm more extension to reach the nominal .5m near focus distance, an indication that the focal lengths are indeed different and not just marked differently.

In addition to Tomioka we may want to consider Cosina and Nittoh as suppliers of these lenses.

Eager to hear your thoughts.

Bill


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
casualcollector wrote:

From left to right; Chinon 55mm, Fujinon 50mm, Mamiya 55mm, Rikenon 50mm, Yashinon 50mm.

Your Chinon and Rikenon lenses are marked as Sears. Even though they are probably identical to Chinon and Rikenon respectively why not state their real names?

casualcollector wrote:

Marked minimum focus and measured extension; .5m/8mm, .46/7.3, .5/8.1, .5/7.5, .6/5.4

Mamiya goes a little bit closer than Chinon so this explains 0.1mm difference in their extension.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo wrote:
Your Chinon and Rikenon lenses are marked as Sears. Even though they are probably identical to Chinon and Rikenon respectively why not state their real names?


In my thinking, Chinon and Rikenon are their "real" names. There is certainly room for discussion in that, but Chinon and Ricoh goods were supplied to Sears-Roebuck and Co.

I could have speculated further and referred to them as Cosina-Chinon-Sears, Nittoh-Fujinon, Cosina-Mamiya, Tomioka-Rikenon-Sears and Tomioka-Yashinon, but that's a little too much speculation, IMO.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
casualcollector wrote:
dimitrygo wrote:
Your Chinon and Rikenon lenses are marked as Sears. Even though they are probably identical to Chinon and Rikenon respectively why not state their real names?


In my thinking, Chinon and Rikenon are their "real" names. There is certainly room for discussion in that, but Chinon and Ricoh goods were supplied to Sears-Roebuck and Co.

I could have speculated further and referred to them as Cosina-Chinon-Sears, Nittoh-Fujinon, Cosina-Mamiya, Tomioka-Rikenon-Sears and Tomioka-Yashinon, but that's a little too much speculation, IMO.

But in this case (and not only) most chances neither Chinon nor Ricoh made these lenses. So the question is whether these Sears were re-badged Chinon and Ricoh that were sourced from the real maker or they were directly sourced from the real maker.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
More to the point, I'm hoping the participants in this discussion will look at the characteristics of these lenses and offer their conclusions on who the maker may have been.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do I understand correctly that the lens block of Chinon is 3.5-4mm longer than that of Mamiya? This prooves they have even different optical schema, not just different makers.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Chinon lens is longer measured from the mounting face to the front edge of the filter ring. Optics appear the same. There are significant differences in the mechanical aspects of the Chinon and Mamiya.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Your samples might present five different body manufacturers.

I think the mutual story regarding 1.4/55mm lenses is based around fully flat rear element optic design. To avoid a total mess we might concentrate only on those. You can exclude Fuji. It never fits in. In cases above the Rikenon is an odd-ball too. Strange, since my M42 Auto Rikenons are all flat (four of them). Yashinon DS-M & DX that i have are all non-flat version.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
Your samples might present five different body manufacturers.

I think the mutual story regarding 1.4/55mm lenses is based around fully flat rear element optic design. To avoid a total mess we might concentrate only on those. You can exclude Fuji. It never fits in. In cases above the Rikenon is an odd-ball too. Strange, since my M42 Auto Rikenons are all flat (four of them). Yashinon DS-M & DX that i have are all non-flat version.


Not so simple. The rear element of Sears/Rikenon 55/1.4 is not completely flat. At least not on their most common versions. It may look flat until you compare it to really flat element of Mamiya for example. And the first versions of Mamiya 55/1.4 have very prominent convex rear element. Also chances are there is Mamiya version with slightly convex rear element identical to Sears/Rikenon. Later versions of Mamiya just before SX series also have convex rear element identical to the SX series itself. Those late versions are thought to be made by Mamiya itself though.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Two things occur to me:

1. Why does it matter who made what?

2. What's the point in having many very similar 1.4 lenses?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Two things occur to me:

1. Why does it matter who made what?

2. What's the point in having many very similar 1.4 lenses?


1. It doesn't, other than idle curiosity.

2. No point. They came attached to cameras in my collection.

Some people, myself included, are curious about such minutiae.
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