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My little identification discovery: Tomioka myth busted
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lloydy wrote:
Pancolart wrote:
Both versions exists. You can see forefather here including the typical DOF scale symbol:

From this topic:
http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=33372


I gave one of these, under a different name that I can't remember now, to Ian a while back. I was about to throw it away, it was dire. But I thought I'd get a second opinion. Laughing Laughing


Oh, I have that lens on my shelf still, forgot about it, I will find my M42 adapter and give it a try. It's branded Samuranon.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another myth - about "tomioka" 55/1.4 lenses. Every "flat back" 55/1.4 somebody calls "tomioka", but largest part of these lenses made by Cosina.

Original Cosinon 55/1.4:


Porst Color Reflex Auto 55/1.4, two versions, one with "rubber" focusing ring(also presents Tomioka-made 55/1.4 under this brand):




Edixa Auto 55/1.4



Super Reflecta 55/1.4



Super Carenar 55/1.4



Auto Revuenon 55/1.4(also presents Tomioka-made 55/1.4 under this brand)



Rikenon(and Sears 55/1.4 comes with Ricoh/Sears cameras) also Cosina-made with customised design:



Mamiya-Sekor 55/1.4



And many more

Two Mamiya-Sekor 55/1.8, Tomioka(or just identical with Yashinon DX) and Cosina




PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here 100% confirmed Tomioka lens. What we can see?



On the distance scale feets at the top and meters at the bottom. And every Yashica 50-55mm lens has the the same layout. But Cosina-made 55mm lenses has meters at the top and feets at the bottom.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are a lot of similarity between "100% confirmed Tomioka" and Cosinon. It could be some sort of cooperation between some Japanese companies at that time or it even could be Tomioka made this lens for Cosina. We will probably never know the truth. We cannot say for sure Tomioka made all these lenses but the same goes for Cosina.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Similarity only external. Internal it's absolutely different lenses(i'm disassembled both of it).


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Perhaps Cosina and Tomioka were using the same supplier for their barrel parts?


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Perhaps Cosina and Tomioka were using the same supplier for their barrel parts?

+10000

I'm pretty sure that also Konica, Tokina, Nikon and I guess many more Japanese manufacturers were all using the same supplier for their barrel parts!

Last edited by ForenSeil on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:21 am; edited 6 times in total


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nukemall wrote:
Similarity only external. Internal it's absolutely different lenses(i'm disassembled both of it).

Can you elaborate what are the differences? Did you disassemble also Mamiya, Rikenon and Sears lenses?


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Sears" means nothing. It's trademark of resellers. What he buy, that he sells.
And, yes, i disassemble Tomioka 55/1.4, Cosinon 55/1.4, and Cosina-made Mamiya 55/1.4, Sears 55/1.4, Rikenon 55/1.4(two last is the same lenses with different writings on the nameplate ring).

Differences between Tomioka and Cosina:

Tomioka: unscrewing front part with filter thread
Cosina: unscrewing nameplate ring

Tomioka: has separate lens block
Cosina: has not

Enough?


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nukemall wrote:
"Sears" means nothing. It's trademark of resellers. What he buy, that he sells.
And, yes, i disassemble Tomioka 55/1.4, Cosinon 55/1.4, and Cosina-made Mamiya 55/1.4, Sears 55/1.4, Rikenon 55/1.4(two last is the same lenses with different writings on the nameplate ring).

Differences between Tomioka and Cosina:

Tomioka: unscrewing front part with filter thread
Cosina: unscrewing nameplate ring

Tomioka: has separate lens block
Cosina: has not

Enough?


You're talking differences between CHINON body and COSINA made bodies, optics is the same in both.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ForenSeil wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Perhaps Cosina and Tomioka were using the same supplier for their barrel parts?

+10000

I'm pretty sure that also Konica, Tokina, Nikon and I guess many more Japanese manufacturers were all using the same supplier for their barrel parts!


Konica definitely, the similarities to other makers are strong. Also, some Konicas were made by Tokina, off the top of my head, the 28-135 is, it was also sold as a Tokina AT-X lens. 1.8/50 and 1.8/40 were made by a third party, maybe Tokina also.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You're talking Borg production Wink.

In time things will become clearer. We'll be able to separate who contributed what. Sadly i think i failed.
Anyway i am sure two lenses below mentioned by Lloydy belongs to the same initially presented series:




PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, the fonts seem identical on those but they also very close to the font on Cimko lens from the previous page:


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I actually don't know if Japanese makers used common barrels. I think makers simply made barrels that looked alike. Yashica and Mamiya barrels look superficially similar, but the mechanics are different, for instance. Some companies like Soligor may have made their own barrels, while outside companies only supplied the glass. According to that one Japanese site about Miranda lenses, apparently they had capacity to manufacture their own barrels starting in the 1960s.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mos6502 wrote:
Some companies like Soligor may have made their own barrels, while outside companies only supplied the glass. According to that one Japanese site about Miranda lenses, apparently they had capacity to manufacture their own barrels starting in the 1960s.


Not sure Vivitar, Soligor and alike had facilities to do that.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
You're talking differences between CHINON body and COSINA made bodies, optics is the same in both.


Similar, but not the same. Differences in the lenses curvature visible without micrometer.

Quote:
Yashica and Mamiya barrels look superficially similar, but the mechanics are different, for instance.


Initially M42 lenses for Mamiya made by Tomioka, as for the Yashica. Later Mamiya orders "look alike" lenses from Cosina. Maybe, Cosina-made "Tomioka" lenses started from this.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
AFAIK, starting from SX series (M42), Mamiya manufactured their own lenses. They also rebranded them for Rollei (in QBM mount).


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nukemall wrote:
Quote:
You're talking differences between CHINON body and COSINA made bodies, optics is the same in both.


Similar, but not the same. Differences in the lenses curvature visible without micrometer.

Quote:
Yashica and Mamiya barrels look superficially similar, but the mechanics are different, for instance.


Initially M42 lenses for Mamiya made by Tomioka, as for the Yashica. Later Mamiya orders "look alike" lenses from Cosina. Maybe, Cosina-made "Tomioka" lenses started from this.


Сan you please tell exactly which lenses you disassembled and compared? Because Mamiya looks exactly like Chinon Tomioka. There is a version of Mamiya lens with convex rear element but let's put it aside for this discussion. Sears/Rikenon could be different potentially and indeed resemble "Cosina family" as you have presented it.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo wrote:
Сan you please tell exactly which lenses you disassembled and compared? Because Mamiya looks exactly like Chinon Tomioka. There is a version of Mamiya lens with convex rear element but let's put it aside for this discussion. Sears/Rikenon could be different potentially and indeed resemble "Cosina family" as you have presented it.


Rikenon and Mamiya(not SX!) 55/1.4 is the same lenses with different focusing, aperture and DOF scale rings.



I'm disassembled both of it. It's the(again) Cosinon 55/1.4 with the different rings. Only customised external design, internally it's the same. I can disassemble Mamiya, Rikenon and Cosinon, mix parts and assemble working lens.

Tomioka lenses like this:



Internally absolutely different. And Yashica Yashinon 50-55mm lenses very close to it.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nukemall wrote:

Rikenon and Mamiya(not SX!) 55/1.4 is the same lenses with different focusing, aperture and DOF scale rings.



There are at least two different versions of that Mamiya lens. One is similar to the Rikenon lens you have pictured, and is probably built by Cosina; the other version, however, is very different, and can be easily distingueshed by its completely flat rear lens (and this version is probably built by Tomioka). I have the Rikenon and that other Mamiya lens, and they are obviously very different optically (and I thing their aperture blades go in different direction, too, but I am not sure).


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:
nukemall wrote:

Rikenon and Mamiya(not SX!) 55/1.4 is the same lenses with different focusing, aperture and DOF scale rings.



There are at least two different versions of that Mamiya lens. One is similar to the Rikenon lens you have pictured, and is probably built by Cosina; the other version, however, is very different, and can be easily distingueshed by its completely flat rear lens (and this version is probably built by Tomioka). I have the Rikenon and that other Mamiya lens, and they are obviously very different optically (and I thing their aperture blades go in different direction, too, but I am not sure).

Do you have Rikenon with convex rear element?
There are at least 2 versions of Rikenon and both have flat rear element.
There are several versions of Mamiya lens, one with convex rear element, one with flat rear element that is identical to Sears/Rikenon, one with flat rear element that is identical to Tomioka lenses - Mamiya-Sekor and Mamiya/Sekor versions 2 and 3 respectively from here
https://picasaweb.google.com/dimitrygo/55mmF14LensesInAlphabeticalOrder#


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What if you discovered that your favorite, sharpest, bokeh-est lens was made by the handyman down the street in his garage workshop? Would that affect the lens' performance or your desire to use it?


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo wrote:

Do you have Rikenon with convex rear element?
There are at least 2 versions of Rikenon and both have flat rear element.
There are several versions of Mamiya lens, one with convex rear element, one with flat rear element that is identical to Sears/Rikenon, one with flat rear element that is identical to Tomioka lenses - Mamiya-Sekor and Mamiya/Sekor versions 2 and 3 respectively from here
https://picasaweb.google.com/dimitrygo/55mmF14LensesInAlphabeticalOrder#

I have two different Rikenons, both with convex rear lenses. My M42 Mamiya 55/1.4 has a flat rear lens, but I've seen copies with convex rear element, too. Interestingly, the SX version of Mamiya 55/1.4, which I also have, has a convex lens element (but that lens does not look similar to the other 55/1.4's at all, so I think it's been made by Mamiya themselves).


PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:
dimitrygo wrote:

Do you have Rikenon with convex rear element?
There are at least 2 versions of Rikenon and both have flat rear element.
There are several versions of Mamiya lens, one with convex rear element, one with flat rear element that is identical to Sears/Rikenon, one with flat rear element that is identical to Tomioka lenses - Mamiya-Sekor and Mamiya/Sekor versions 2 and 3 respectively from here
https://picasaweb.google.com/dimitrygo/55mmF14LensesInAlphabeticalOrder#

I have two different Rikenons, both with convex rear lenses. My M42 Mamiya 55/1.4 has a flat rear lens, but I've seen copies with convex rear element, too. Interestingly, the SX version of Mamiya 55/1.4, which I also have, has a convex lens element (but that lens does not look similar to the other 55/1.4's at all, so I think it's been made by Mamiya themselves).

Can you please take pictures of your Rikenons that show all their important properties like most pictures in my gallery?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo
I have the Auto Rikenon 1.4/55 (version 2 in your photo set) with the flat rear element and rounded A/M switch the serial number is 110821...just for your info/research my front screw slots align perfectly with the A for Auto and the 1st 1 on the serial number. (I have not opened this lens).


This is an interesting thread but I think the subject is a tough one without a paper trail to back up the similarities...I am curious about such things but would rather enjoy using the lenses Very Happy Good luck in your tracking down of who made what lens.
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